Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

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QWARKED
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Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby QWARKED » Fri May 18, 2018 8:01 am

The kind of vague descriptions we got don't exactly tell us what either of these truly do. Can't be pinned by "big" moves? Submits at 1/20th the rate? The latter is particularly cryptic. Subs just check for 0 spirit do they not?

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Dawnbr3ak3r » Fri May 18, 2018 8:11 am

I don't know the exact specifics, but an edit with Hardbody can absorb a ton of damage. They have to take a big move, like a Finisher coupled with Superstar Special Skill, for example, before they'll be pinned.

Guts makes the edit nigh impervious to submission attempts. Again, I'm unsure of the exact specifics, but an edit will need to really chew away with submissions if they're going to make an opponent with Guts tap out. I've seen edits tap out to Superstar buffed Finisher submissions, but only on rare occasions have regular submissions broken through it. Its argued that Guts is exceedingly strong, and only edits that truly deserve it should have it.
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Love Wilcox
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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Love Wilcox » Fri May 18, 2018 8:39 am

From my experience with Hardbody; edits can only lose to moves marked as a Special or Finisher (with the exception of criticals of course xD) and are more likely to kick out of Specials and Finshers relative to edits without Hardbody.
My original edits: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1140

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Jason Blackhart » Fri May 18, 2018 10:13 am

Hardbody: There's a damage threshold (5120 HP) that needs to be reached to keep the wrestler down for a three count. If the last damage done to the wrestler doesn't reach that threshold, they'll kick out at 2.9 when the recovery/spirit values would normally say it should be a three.

Guts: Yes, submission attempts just check for zero spirit, but Guts adds a random number check. Only if the RNG returns 1-5 will the wrestler give up, 6-100 will have them continue (so 5%, or 1/20th the normal 100% rate).

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby heelsinc » Fri May 18, 2018 11:23 am

Jason Blackhart wrote:Hardbody: There's a damage threshold (5120 HP) that needs to be reached to keep the wrestler down for a three count. If the last damage done to the wrestler doesn't reach that threshold, they'll kick out at 2.9 when the recovery/spirit values would normally say it should be a three.

Guts: Yes, submission attempts just check for zero spirit, but Guts adds a random number check. Only if the RNG returns 1-5 will the wrestler give up, 6-100 will have them continue (so 5%, or 1/20th the normal 100% rate).




:shock: :o :o

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MBXfilms
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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby MBXfilms » Fri May 18, 2018 12:32 pm

I never took those abilities as that strong.

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby senator » Fri May 18, 2018 12:43 pm

MBXfilms wrote:I never took those abilities as that strong.


Funny, I'd take one of them over a T2 skill any day for a wrestler, depending on common opponents. In my experience, they're immensely strong.

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MBXfilms
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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby MBXfilms » Fri May 18, 2018 1:45 pm

I mean before I thought they weren't much. After reading that description they are insanely strong.

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Rushpage » Fri May 18, 2018 2:52 pm

Wow. I knew guts made it harder to get a submission on a guy but no idea it was *that* much more difficult. Nice.
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Love Wilcox
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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Love Wilcox » Fri May 18, 2018 3:03 pm

Yes they’re strong as hell and IMO should be reserved for main event guys only.

Also when it comes to Hardbody, if I’m familiar with both edits moveset and logic and one or both have HB it can make the match extremely predictable, especially if they have a tonne of potential match-enders that aren’t marked as Special or Finisher.
My original edits: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1140

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Severla 2.0 » Fri May 18, 2018 6:30 pm

Hardbody is usually placed under Guts as far as how strong it is and it makes me sad.

Half the edits I see using Hardbody are tanky murder machines as is and Hardbody simply makes them not fun to sim.

It's one thing to have all medium defenses and Hardbody to play "the never say die" edit. It's another to have notably high defenses AND offenses AND Hardbody and act like it's balanced.

Love Wilcox wrote:it can make the match extremely predictable


Yeah, two Hardbodies in a match are, well, boring IMO. As you said, all the big spots are wasted if they arent sigs.

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby djkm77 » Fri May 18, 2018 6:46 pm

I avoid hardbody at all costs
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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Severla 2.0 » Fri May 18, 2018 7:22 pm

djkm77 wrote:I avoid hardbody at all costs


I avoid most of the skills, period.

Stardom, Finisher, and Superstar are useful in mimicking American-style wrestling, and Blood (which is still MMA-y) and Hardcore for Death Match edits.

I feel like nearly EVERY other skill is made for MMA/Boxing edits and the occasional God-Tier Legend, not regular wrestling edits.

It's certainly not a call-out towards anybody on the forums, either, I just frown at seeing a lot of use of Hardbody, Guts, and Reborn as of late, much less the others.

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Jetlag » Fri May 18, 2018 7:42 pm

I think Hardbody is good for an Ace-type with insane resilience, e.g. Misawa. I've only used it for one of my edits (Gorae Wolf)... but then, that dude beat everyone in the Worldcup. Go figure.

Guts really only only make sense for a guy who pretty much never submits ever (e.g Undertaker, Cena). Submissions are rare enough as they are.

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Severla 2.0 » Fri May 18, 2018 8:05 pm

Jetlag wrote:Guts really only only make sense for a guy who pretty much never submits ever (e.g Undertaker, Cena). Submissions are rare enough as they are.



Kinda depends. I do get that there's a slight disdain for Edits who are powerhouses with one random submission thrown in, because if they're in a 30m epic and that 5% submission randomly gets slapped on for the auto-win it can be a buzzkill, but Guts isnt healthy against Edits actually built to work submissions.

Even for guys who basically never submit, High Spirit and Absurd Joint/Stretch defense to work the counters. That or flatly dont put them against heavy submission-ists.

Jetlag wrote:I think Hardbody is good for an Ace-type with insane resilience, e.g. Misawa.


I dont disagree, but my Aces that may get Hardbody likely wont dip out into the Arenaverse very often. Or if they do, wont have Hardbody on the public releases.

It's all still a view-point thing, and we're all humans with varied view-points haha.

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Dawnbr3ak3r » Fri May 18, 2018 8:15 pm

Jason Blackhart wrote:Hardbody: There's a damage threshold (5120 HP) that needs to be reached to keep the wrestler down for a three count. If the last damage done to the wrestler doesn't reach that threshold, they'll kick out at 2.9 when the recovery/spirit values would normally say it should be a three.

Carlzilla has a mod for World that shows each edits' Health, Spirit, and Breath meter. They don't have numbers on them, however, does the 5120 HP threshold come into play after the edit has reached 0 HP, or does it come into play when the edit reaches that particular HP level? I'm aware that edits have roughly 60000 HP (it's more than that, but I don't remember the precise number).

Guts: Yes, submission attempts just check for zero spirit, but Guts adds a random number check. Only if the RNG returns 1-5 will the wrestler give up, 6-100 will have them continue (so 5%, or 1/20th the normal 100% rate).

This makes a lot more sense with the right context. It's not necessarily a flat 5%, but the value has to land on one of five values, with the other 95 values forcing them to continue. That's easy enough to remember.

Given this information overall, I still think Guts is stronger than Hardbody. Regardless, I'll only be giving these Skills to edits that deserve them or it makes sense for them to have them.
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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby heelsinc » Fri May 18, 2018 10:41 pm

I gave my tommy dreamer hardbody. Hes the only tjats gotten it so far.

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Love Wilcox
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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby Love Wilcox » Fri May 18, 2018 10:47 pm

heelsinc wrote:I gave my tommy dreamer hardbody. Hes the only tjats gotten it so far.


But Dreamer almost always loses xD and mostly via pinfall!
My original edits: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1140

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby senator » Fri May 18, 2018 10:55 pm

I should also add onto my comments that I don't take either of the two lightly, there has to be a very specific reason I throw Hardbody onto an edit.

Mina Fitsharris and Juliette Erving have Hardbody. I don't break it out all that often, but those two almost require it for their fighting style. Sometimes, it results in stupidly long epics(see Mina vs. Skully, any time they face off), but more often, it gives those two F-sized edits a better chance than not to absorb a good deal of damage from larger opponents and stage a late match retaliation.

I'd agree with Dawn that Guts is more powerful overall than Hardbody in direct effectiveness against what it's supposed to assist with, but that Hardbody is generally more useful for most pro wrestling style opponents, and if you're just talking about FPWA competition, it's the more dangerous of the two to apply unless you're specifically planning to take down a submission specialist.

I've always been more of an artist than a scientist with my edits, if I find something works, and the edits are behaving properly and balanced against the people they should be balanced against, I'll go with it.

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Re: Hardbody & Guts: How exactly do they work?

Postby heelsinc » Fri May 18, 2018 11:51 pm

Love Wilcox wrote:
heelsinc wrote:I gave my tommy dreamer hardbody. Hes the only tjats gotten it so far.


But Dreamer almost always loses xD and mostly via pinfall!


I know but he had and they really pushed that never give up attitude so i felt we low stats he would still lose.


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