WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

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soak314
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WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby soak314 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:07 am

SHOWMANSHIP

https://youtu.be/RNbmyTIhAnw

Spoiler: show
"Starting with Showmanship, basically the wrestler's tendency to put on a good match.

This has a lot to do with irish whips. Somebody with a high Showmanship will be more likely to try to whip people outside of the ring or to whip them into corners (and do vault attacks?).

And also if you're doing over the top rope elimination, if the wrestler has high showmanship he will tend to wait until his opponent is worn down, work the match for a while before he tries to go for over the top rope. As opposed to someone with low Showmanship who'll try to win the match as quickly as possible"


DISCRETION

https://youtu.be/wRy8XQzjfO4

Spoiler: show
"Discretion mainy affects two things. If you have a higher Discretion set the wrestler will be more likely to focus on his breathing and make sure that they don't run out of breath in the middle of the match.

The other thing is, let's say, you're gonna try and pin the opponent and you want to do a front headlock to maneuver them to a certain part of the ring. A wrestler with high Discretion will tend to move the opponent to the middle of the ring so he has a higher chance of pinning them so he can't do the rope escape."


FLEXIBILITY

https://youtu.be/gH4VrtyDhXA

Spoiler: show
"Certain fight styles do not respond to irish whips. If you irish whip a shooter, fighter, or a grappler, they will always catch themselves on the ropes. So if your wrestler has high Flexibility he will try to adapt to his opponent's fighting style and will not try to do these moves that will have no effect.

And also, a wrestler with higher flexibility will try to escape more often during a cage deathmatch."

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soak314
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Re: WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby soak314 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:07 am

Reserved!

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soak314
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Re: WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby soak314 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:08 am

Also reserved!

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Wonderland
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Re: WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby Wonderland » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:23 pm

There's no more mystery in the world.

Except where he uses language like, "has a lot to do with", or "mainly affects".... I wonder if those have any particular significance or just casual speech.

There's still room to ponder the ambiguities of existence! (lol jk we're all wormfood, thanks for the trascribe SOAK)
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orochigeese
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Re: WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby orochigeese » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:49 pm

I believe that there is another take on this comment on Flexibility:

"Certain fight styles do not respond to irish whips."

It is beneath the dignity of MMA wrestlers to respond to offers of irish whips.

This is purely a gentlemanly stance. I petitition Spike to put in "Gentleman Grappler" as a fight style to take care of this issue and allow Flexibility to be about CONTORTIONISTS. That''s right suckas - you thought the great Fire Pro Contortionist debate of 2007 was over!! I brought it back! :goose: :angrymob:



But seriously, I think that Dave (and the programmers) gave a pretty good description of what Jason Blackhart had told us a few years back. I personally feel that there are one or two things more that Showmanship and Discretion do and perhaps something else with Flexibility.

The most interesting thing to me that emerged from the chat was the specific information that high cooperation actually somewhat OVERRIDES (or interacts with) "Standing/Walking logic (the first logic category) by causing wrestlers in a tag team match to go for the grapple more than than they would if they relied on their regular Standing/Walking logic.

Carlzilla helped me understand this a little further during the chat and my mind was blown.

This was not only information that I never knew that HUGELY affects tag team matches (if you want double team moves from dedicated tag team edits, then you really should have cooperation at 100% now) - but it also delves deeper into the Fire Pro dynamic that I have been studying but unable to get a firm grasp on for years:

The concept that categories themselves (and not just the moves) are chosen over each other through the RNG and logic. For this specific example of Cooperation/Tag: The game apparently checks the cooperation logic % of edits when they are in a situation where they COULD do a double team grapple move, and a high cooperation number makes it more likely for both edits to attempt a (front/baack) grapple even if their "attempt a grapple" % is low. (I assume this goes for corner grapples too). This "override" of a logic category or "interaction" is huge. It makes me wonder what other CPU logic settings (or fight styles, or anything) contributes to some move/logic categories being attempted first or mixing in with others.

I already knew that the RNG plus ring positioning calculation is responsible for certain categories being chosen over others but without any kind of "mixing" like with cooperation. For example, when an opponent stands up dazed: The edit can either go for a move from these positions: standing strike, a running strike, a weapon shot, post diving, or apron to inside. Before the specific move is chosen, the category itself has to be chosen. A dazed edit in the middle of the ring won't be eligible to have a post diving move done against them just as an edit right next to the post won't be eligible to have a running move done against them. So we knew that "Category" logic was chosen before move logic and that it was based on RNG plus ring positioning.

But I never imagined that something like going for a grapple, which was primarily set by standing logic (and standing while dazed) categories could be overridden by Cooperation. That is a huge revelation for both tag matches AND the overall study of the Fire Pro engine. What other situations could exist like this? With not just as "choice" of categories but an interaction of them!?

THE MIND BOGGLES BEFORE IT IS FREE :jarry:

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Wonderland
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Re: WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby Wonderland » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:40 pm

orochigeese wrote:THE MIND BOGGLES BEFORE IT IS FREE :jarry:


I don't even know what to say but to hoot and holler and throw myself out a window in appreciation.

Geese, this just came up in another thread, but how bout the idea of ukemi being one of these overrides? Isn't that where RNGesus says, THOU SHALT WIN GRAPPLE, but Ukemithulu says NO. Though that's not quite the sort of thing you have in mind about categorical overrides in more specific situations, like tag logic in tag matches completely overriding behavior, not just a one-off RNG determination.
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soak314
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Re: WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby soak314 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:10 pm

Wonderland wrote:
orochigeese wrote:THE MIND BOGGLES BEFORE IT IS FREE :jarry:


I don't even know what to say but to hoot and holler and throw myself out a window in appreciation.

Geese, this just came up in another thread, but how bout the idea of ukemi being one of these overrides? Isn't that where RNGesus says, THOU SHALT WIN GRAPPLE, but Ukemithulu says NO. Though that's not quite the sort of thing you have in mind about categorical overrides in more specific situations, like tag logic in tag matches completely overriding behavior, not just a one-off RNG determination.


They had a quick word on ukemi too. Gonna get to that eventually! It's nothing we don't already know, but there will be more CASUAL WORDING for us to wonder about!

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Re: WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby fullbug » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:23 pm

Wonderland wrote:
orochigeese wrote:THE MIND BOGGLES BEFORE IT IS FREE :jarry:


I don't even know what to say but to hoot and holler and throw myself out a window in appreciation.

Geese, this just came up in another thread, but how bout the idea of ukemi being one of these overrides? Isn't that where RNGesus says, THOU SHALT WIN GRAPPLE, but Ukemithulu says NO. Though that's not quite the sort of thing you have in mind about categorical overrides in more specific situations, like tag logic in tag matches completely overriding behavior, not just a one-off RNG determination.

I have been wondering something along these lines myself, I hope we can get some sort of answer to this, before they stop doing public Q&A's on the game..... :?

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Re: WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby otaku2255 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:25 pm

With the explanation of how Irish whips are accepted or not, I wonder how/when/why wrestlers grab the ropes during a whip when you are playing.

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Re: WORD OF DAVE: Selected Transcripts of Logic Things From Devstream

Postby orochigeese » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:02 pm

Wonderland wrote:
orochigeese wrote:THE MIND BOGGLES BEFORE IT IS FREE :jarry:


I don't even know what to say but to hoot and holler and throw myself out a window in appreciation.

Geese, this just came up in another thread, but how bout the idea of ukemi being one of these overrides? Isn't that where RNGesus says, THOU SHALT WIN GRAPPLE, but Ukemithulu says NO. Though that's not quite the sort of thing you have in mind about categorical overrides in more specific situations, like tag logic in tag matches completely overriding behavior, not just a one-off RNG determination.


Dying laughing at RNGesus :lol: He booted for our sims :zealot:

The issue with ukemi being a potential logic category override is this. As far as we know (*), it doesn't actually affect the rate of either edit initially winning that grapple. It just makes it so that if Wrestler A wins a grapple, Wrestler B won't attempt to counter (the resulting move) in any way if they have high ukemi.

(*) Years of hearing new findings in the Fire Pro community has yielded a healthy expectation of "it actually isn't that way" or "hot diggety dog, there's more to this than we realized!" so if one day we find out that ukemi also partially affects grapple winning, I wouldn't be that surprised. I do believe that - at least for FPR - JB tested ukemi thoroughly and it didn't affect the grapple winning. But maybe that's changed in FPW?

All I know is that Ukemithulu is the eater of lost edits. And with strange aeons, even spirit may die :ak:


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