Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

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Wonderland
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Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Wonderland » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:42 pm

This will mostly be intended for beginner edit creators in the hopes of offering some general edit-making advice aimed at making matches not suck right out of the box. At least initially. I'm hoping this will be a sort of living guide, being added to and growing with posts from all of you, from and about the basics to the advanceds. Maybe it'll eventually end up being a compendium of cool little logic hacks or other edit making philosophies and how-to's for achieving very specific ends, but I'll not get ahead of myself. Instead, just to start us off, here are a few of the most basic, general, first-thing-I-look-at when evaluating a brand new edit bits of info.



If you don't want a match to end after a random punch...
...or otherwise random move, like a front headlock drag, or snapmare, or whatever: Do Not put any logic points into pins at "Opponent Condition Critical". This goes for rest holds as well. No matter how low you put this, even if it's 1%, you're leaving that much of a chance of a match ending after a random, anticlimactic move. Ask yourself if you would be happy to see a 30 minute epic which has seen near fall after near fall from signatures and finishers finally get the three count after an irish whip botch bump, or end a chinlock submission. If the answer is no, you would rather not see that happen, ever, then be sure any pins and rest holds in your moveset against a downed opponent are set to 0 for the final category of opponent damage level. Otherwise, you will see these kinds of finishes.

If you do want matches to end after moves that are intended to end matches:
Use the "Priority Attack" logic settings to ensure pin fall attempts after match-ending moves. You have three priority attack slots, which means you can have up to three moves that don't inherently include a pin still give your edit the opportunity to pick up the win. You pick your "Priority Attack" move from among your moveset, then can assign a "Follow-Up Attack" for the downed opponent. These can be either standing at head or feet, and either a regular move from those positions or specifically a pin attempt. In general, you probably want to give 100% chance to go for the pin after your main finisher, or even potential match-ending signatures that you also intend to be 2 and 2.9 getters. You might think making it 95% will give your edit the opportunity to keep kicking ass once in a while when he's really feeling it and doesn't want to end the match yet, but it just ends up causing matches that have come to their seemingly natural conclusion where you're itching for a pin fall end up needlessly continuing after a huge move that should have ended it. You can also make a "finishing combo" that doesn't end in a pin, but maybe a signature submission for example. Again, the idea is to have matches end or be attempted to be ended appropriately.

If you don't want to see a finisher come out two minutes into a match:
Do Not put any logic points for a finisher at Small or Medium damage. This goes for signature moves and any move that is intended to eventually get wins for the edit at any point, which means finishing submissions as well. Many new edit makers, myself included at first, think giving some small percentage to these big moves earlier in matches will allow for cool moments where they try to go for their finisher early but get reversed, and it'll function as a sort of tease for when it actually comes out and gets the win later. In reality, this is the least likely of what ends up happening. Instead, you just get a Last Ride or Burning Hammer or whatever other ZOMGBA'GAWDBA'GAWD move busted out in the opening minutes during the feeling-out phase of a match. And it kills any notion of match pacing from which there is no recovery and you might as well just ring the bell and start over. Seeing a finisher/signature/submission come out early lessens the impact of the move psychologically, because it's going to come out again, and again, and the more it comes out without getting a win, the less powerful it seems. Instead, to tease and build up to these big moves, build a moveset with moves that have a similar setup but are weaker, more generic versions of the move. Or target the same body part in a similar way. Or any other variation of "not-the-finisher-but-reminiscent-of-it".

If you want to give your big signature and finishing moves the best chance to end a match:
Put your S and F designations on your signature and finishing moves. You get four S's and one F. Ideas on how to use these may vary, but I say put them on your big moves, not just a move that your edit "likes" in a character or story way. Because no one is going to know about that, and even if they do it won't have an impact in the game in any meaningful way. What will have an impact is the damage boost those designations give the moves they're assigned to, with the F giving a higher boost than the S's. In practical terms, this means giving the F to your main finisher will increase the chances that it will keep the opponent down for the pin, or get them to tap out on the submission attempt. Same goes for S's for other signature moves in the moveset, that are meant either to get near falls or end matches as well (including submissions). There are also special skills or critical abilities that take these into account, like the Finisher skill will give an even higher damage boost to your F move.

If you don't want your edit to get opponents into high damage five minutes into a match:
Do Not give your edit high offensive parameters for moves that are used early and often throughout the moveset. This is all about pacing. The less time spent in early/medium damage, the less time edits use their (hopefully) standard, feeling-out, setting-up type moves. The earlier your opponent gets into high damage, the earlier your edit starts busting out big moves. This is highly dependent on offensive parameters. The intuitive thing to do would be to think to yourself, "oh hey my guy is awesome at punching, that's his specialty, his whole moveset is basically punches!". So you give him a 10 in punching. Then five minutes into a match, he's busting out his super power punch finisher, but it's not getting a win. Because it's too soon and the FirePro gods won't allow it! Or it does get the win and now you got an OP HossMonster on your hands that nobody wants to play with. To avoid such a cruel fate, generally it's a good idea to scroll through your moveset and keep an eye on which parameters are being used heavily for often-used categories of moves (standing strikes, front grapples, downed opponent, etc.) and keep those numbers modest. The more they're being used, the lower you can take them. If you have a parameter that is being used in just about every single strike and front grapple and downed opponent move, it really should never be higher than a 5. Frankly, more like a 2 or 3 if it's literally being used for every move. This is a pretty in-depth balancing act that goes on, weighing often-used parameters with rarely-used ones, primary vs. secondary parameters, the split between the two, how often and what those splits are, where in the moveset they fall, more here less there and so on, but this is the general idea. The more the parameter is used, the lower you should keep it. This doesn't mean you necessarily have to raise rarely-used parameters super high either. Unless you happen to have a finisher or signature that uses a rarely-used parameter, then you can pump it up to give that move a whole lotta OOMPH without affecting the rest of the moveset and throwing off match pacing. Parameter tweaking could use a post and guide all its own, so I'll just leave it here for now.


Move Placement

Corner-to-Center Moves

Defensive Parameters

Opponent Selection

Tree-of-Woe; Doomsday Device; End-Match Logic

Character Styles

Appearance and Colors

Standardized Front Grapple Logic

Last edited by Wonderland on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Wonderland
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Wonderland » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:50 pm

Please feel free to add any insights of your own, dear Arena-ites. Anything you wish you saw more of, or less of, in edits from new (or old) edit makers, let it be known, and how and why to fix it. There are always plenty of (often valid) complaints about this or that edit maker and their style and how matches suck cause this happened, or why didn't that happen, or whatever other commonly occurring FirePro faux pas (FireProPas? FireFauxPas? FrauxPas?) that end up turning off sim-watchers, blacklisting edit makers who get labeled in your own head as no-good, their creations never to be used again in your World. Let's help eradicate bad edit-making habits, foster good edit-making habits, and spread the joys of good simming.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby orochigeese » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:57 pm

I was waiting for your second post announcing we can post :D

Everything in this guide is gold and I 100% subscribe to all of it 8-)

This guide should be read by new players and re-read by veteran players.

I especially like the caution against giving high parameters to edits who frequently do moves that utilize those parameters. In general, people should be very careful about the interaction of parameters, moves, and CPU logic AND the defensive parameters of expected opponent edits.

Just my general advice/philosophy about making edits in regards to points/parameters/skills:

Edit mode is a toolbox and points are tools, not measures. Points are one set of means to help you get your edit to perform the way you want, not some objective end to shoot for. If you make an "X" point edit and it works the way you want AND is properly performing against the edits you want it to be, then you are successful. I don't care if X = 30 points or 300 points. You win. Pass Go, Collect $150.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Eisenheim » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:22 pm

Do Not give your edit high offensive parameters for moves that are used early and often throughout the moveset.


That's a pretty interesting point and even complete new to me. Never heard/read of that but it totally makes sense. And forces me to check my logic-settings on all my edits (which are, thanks to the stars, only few at this point. Thats the danger with steam: The temptation to emit edits into the world too early is too big).
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby kikrusher99 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:28 pm

Well, I've already learned something new about parameters. :)

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Love Wilcox » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:41 pm

This is going to be very helpful I feel :D
My original edits: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1140

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Dawnbr3ak3r » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:27 am

The more the parameter is used, the lower you should keep it.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby orochigeese » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:55 am

Wow - :idea:

My computer crashed an hour ago when I was typing this, leading to a long frustrated computer break and familiar feeling of lost work, but somehow this post stayed in my browser memory!!

Spoiler: show
:punch: ... or so I thought! Major 2.9 moment LOL


Move Placement:

Be aware of the specific slots you put certain moves in.

Positioning is really important for doing ground moves, especially early in the match. If you want to see your edit have a shot at following up his fireman's carry with a stomp to the stomach, put the stomp to the stomach in the "head" downed category not the "legs" category. That is because the fireman's carry leaves your edit closer to the opponent's head rather than legs and opponents in "early" damage get up too fast for your edit to have a reliable chance to walk over to their legs. Positioning like this matters throughout all damage categories.

Move Slot also dictates how long opponents stay down after moves, especially in the front/back grapple categories.

Moves in the first four weak slots of front grapple: Opponent stays down short time and gets up non-dazed.
Moves in the four medium slots: Opponent stays down slightly longer and gets up non-dazed.
Moves in the four strong slots: Opponent stays down around same time but gets up dazed.
Moves in the "Weak + Medium" slot: Opponent stays down longest and gets up non-dazed.

Same goes for back grapple but there are less slots. Positioning/slot combination is the same though.

That means you have to make sure what moves you put in each slots. If you want to have a chance at hitting a top rope lariat finisher, you can't fill your strong slots up with submissions, auto-pins (school boy pin, roll-up) or impact pins (powerbomb pin, german suplex pin). Those moves always end with the opponent getting up regularly. But if you put a DDT in one of your strong slots, the opponent will get up dazed (provided the move doesn't happen too early in the match OR doesn't happen after a long chain of moves). That dazed state will allow your edit to have a shot to climb up to the top rope and attempt their flying lariat finisher.

You have to make sure that you have moves in your front and back grapple slots that not only make sense for that edit, but also make sense for potentially setting up other moves you may use - like top rope and downed moves. Every move in your moveset should have a purpose. That purpose may be finishing the match on its own or leading logically to a finisher (doing damage to the body parts the finisher attacks). That purpose may also be setting up a specific move in terms of ring/damage placement - like Mutoh doing his backbreaker to set up his moonsault. You have to make sure that any finishers that aren't in front grapple or standing striking (against standing/walking opponents) are set up properly. The two most common situations in Fire Pro matches are front grapple and standing striking so you can virtually guarantee those two situations will happen at the end of a match. But you have to specifically plan out your moveset and logic to allow for a top rope move to even be attempted.

Make decisions with every move in your moveset that allow for a general plan of attack.
Last edited by orochigeese on Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby heelsinc » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:55 am

holy crap guys this is an awesome guide thank you so much!

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby heelsinc » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:14 am

reading this and this viewtopic.php?f=14&t=93 have made me totally rethink making edits. You can't just do it in order and go down the list the way it is set up in the game it takes so much back and forth between points, logic and moveset. God it takes like 3 hours of research to get down a real life edit with watching matches for movesets and attires. Then like 3 hours to build the guy in the game. Now I have to add in in hours to do it this new correct way!

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Makar17 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:25 am

Good job, Wondy. This is super useful for people looking to make edits that will work well (and not just for the heck of it).
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby ninjabrute » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:43 am

As I have less than a week ago joined in on the fun of edit making, this is going to be invaluable. Thanks!

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby NashTSF007 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:47 am

This guide is very helpful for me and many others. Would you please give me some in depth knowledge on defensive parameters? I find it very difficult to understand.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Sooj » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:51 am

This seems real helpful. Have been steering clear of making an edit, just because it seems so overwhelming. But this guide and all it's posts should help, so thanks.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby maikeru » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:25 pm

On Corner to Center moves:

I'm admittedly not 100% sure on this, but, I've found that the best way to get one to come out is by using a front grapple that ends with the opponent downed, but not the move user. You can kind of see which will do this in move preview -- anything that ends with the user either standing or kneeling at the end gives them a bit more time to set up the c2c move. It also needs to daze them, so you'll want to use it in one of the big grapple slots. It's possible that the move needs to end with the opponent face up, as well. Take that into consideration if you're making a guy with a c2c finisher!

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby TheDenizen » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:58 pm

Excellent info here wondy, a great place for budding edit makers to start.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Old Baby » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:16 pm

Thanks for posting.

I got the CPU logic down pretty well but parameters have always been a bitch for me. This helps.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Dude Cactus » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:10 pm

Yeah parameters I think are probably more of a problem than the CPU logic.

Example: You want to have those slow building King's Road style matches, and you think you have that reflected in the logic. However, your Misawa edit has something like a 7 in his punches, so his elbows are just going to eat through anyone with a punch defense of a 7 or lower. Now the whole middle section of your match may not be as long as you were originally hoping.

Onto another note:

Now personally I've tried working around the late match pins by relying on the special skill "Hardbody." That skill is suppose to make it a bit more difficult to pin your opponent and it has allowed so far for some pins later in the match. Yes, one takes the risk that you might get that dreaded stomp into pin... but it seems that unless there is an S or an F attached to that stomp the most your might get is a 2.9.

Going to have to do some further testing.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Old Baby » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:46 pm

The difficult thing about parameters is like if your edit uses a lot of early strikes, but his finisher is also a strike. So, by turning down punch you're also turning down the strength of his finisher. That's what confuses me, because my first instinct is to make his finisher category a 7-10 in offense.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Dude Cactus » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:56 pm

Oh I understand.

You wouldn't want an edit of Nakamura who would be using leg kicks, body kicks and knee strikes to have only like a 3 in his offensive kick stat because then that means he would have a 3 for his "Boma Ye." However, again, there is the idea that the "F" being marked on it, gives it a boost. I think in FPR it was like a +1... maybe +2 --kind of foggy on that-- and I think the "Finisher" special skill went as far to add a +3 if I recall. So your kick stat would seem to be low, but when the finisher strike is executed, you would have anywhere from a +1 to a +3 added onto it bringing it to a total of 6 (7 if the "F" and "Finisher" skill stacked) for that particular move. Meaning that when it needed to count, it really counted.

Someone that happens to recall some of that more vividly than I could maybe corroborate with what I am saying.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Zealot » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:16 pm

I usually reserve the higher parameter numbers (above 5) for defensive stats. Typically on offense from what I've seen, Punch and Kick parameters that are high mixed with lots of strike opportunties tend to bog down a match more than anything. I usually have most of my edits with 2-4 in their punch and kick unless they specialize it and get a 5. For juniors, Agility seems to be the real killer offense parameter.I usually don't set that one higher than 5.

You could always tally all parameter instances and divide them by the number of move opportunities available to really balance them, but after doing so many edits in the 150-200 range, I kind of have a good idea about it to test and see what happens.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Wonderland » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:34 pm

I couldn't be happier to see the overall feedback of "this is helpful", thanks for reading and taking this stuff into consideration.

NashTSF007 wrote:Would you please give me some in depth knowledge on defensive parameters? I find it very difficult to understand.


Defensive parameters are generally much more straightforward than offensive. And there's more room for character-based choices than with offensive parameters, which should be based more on practicality and match pacing and moveset disposition. Meaning it's more possible to set D params according to what a particular edit is likely to be good at defending against. Whereas with offensive parameters, if the character is a strong puncher and you give him a high punch stat, it's going to throw off match pacing. But if a character has a striking background let's say, and is therefore more experienced and more comfortable taking punches and kicks, you can more readily give him higher defensive parameters for those categories. It both makes sense in a character way, and will be reflected and work out okay in the ring.

Just keep in mind to maybe compensate for high D params in one area, with lower ones in others. The striking background guy for example might not be so good at taking more wrestling based bumps. So you'd lower his aerial and power and technical D params, or any others which are used for slams and suplexes and top rope moves and the like. Maybe a guy is a proficient submission artist, so even though you'd want to keep his offensive stretch and joint params relatively low, assuming a submission-heavy moveset, you might infer that he's also experienced in and good at defending against and dealing with submissions. So higher stretch and joint D params wouldn't be out of order. Basically, the kinds of things which you might intuitively assume is the way to set offensive parameters based on an edits strengths and weaknesses, should actually more likely be applied to defensive parameters.

And when I say things like "high" or "low", these are of course all relative terms. If you're working within a closed universe of your own creations, you'll know in general where the points fall for higher, middle and lower tier edits. Otherwise, it just comes down to testing and averages and guesswork + hoping for the best. My general advice would be to take the scale of 1 to 10 for defensive parameters exactly as you instinctively would, at face value. Use 5 as your average, starting point for most params for most edits. Then raise or lower to fit character and pacing from there. Generally a good idea not to go too extreme one way or the other, high or low, unless done so for very specific reasons and upon very focused testing with an eye towards seeing those specific results you're after. Otherwise, staying within the 3-7 range in most cases is probably fine.

Old Baby wrote:The difficult thing about parameters is like if your edit uses a lot of early strikes, but his finisher is also a strike. So, by turning down punch you're also turning down the strength of his finisher. That's what confuses me, because my first instinct is to make his finisher category a 7-10 in offense.


Beauty is, if the edit is using a lot of strikes it means by the time a finisher using strike params comes out (assuming properly logic'd to only come out late and not very often even then), the damage has already been done to mind body and spirit, and the boost from an S or F will more than likely put the nail in the coffin and make a fall quite likely. The final move itself doesn't have to be particularly damaging if there isn't much damage left to do by the time it is used. I can confirm this with plenty of edits I've made or worked with, with finishing moves having O params of as low as 4 and maybe even less, that reliably put away opponents upon first contact, because that 4 was being used consistently throughout the match, along with other higher params.

This is much more of a mental block than any actual in-game lack of effectiveness. It's hard to let go of the notion that a finisher should be effective, and that effectiveness should be reflected via a high offensive parameter. In practice, effectiveness is moreso determined by the overall pacing of the match and where the finishing move actually comes out and if enough damage has already been done by that point. Even if you have a 10 param'd finisher, if it comes out too early and before the opponent has taken enough hp and spirit and breath damage, it's not going to get the win.

Dude Cactus wrote:Now personally I've tried working around the late match pins by relying on the special skill "Hardbody." That skill is suppose to make it a bit more difficult to pin your opponent and it has allowed so far for some pins later in the match.


I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to do with this. What do you mean by working around late match pins?

Dude Cactus wrote:Yes, one takes the risk that you might get that dreaded stomp into pin... but it seems that unless there is an S or an F attached to that stomp the most your might get is a 2.9.


There is literally no risk of this ever happening if you don't have any points in pins at high damage. If an edit doesn't go for a pin late in a match after a stomp, he can't win after a stomp. I think Buddha once said that.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby fullbug » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:50 pm

Wish I could absorb everything said in one shot here, but it takes quite a few re-reads and time, but still helpful in any case...... :shock:

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Dude Cactus » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:08 pm

What I mean by late match pins Wondy is those spots where a wrestler gets a near fall off of something that isn't exactly a signature maneuver or finishing move.

For example, you have a match that is running into the twenty minute mark and one of your edits uses a DDT. However, that DDT again doesn't have any significant meaning, so there is no "S" or "F" next to it in the move list and there is no priority slot dedicated to it. Yet, that DDT is hit and because there is some percentage in there for an attempt to go for a pin during that critical phase, you get yourself a 2.9 from the ref, which in turn makes it appear that your wrestler used a move possibly out of desperation to obtain a victory or is now at the phase where he could be throwing anything at his opponent to just put him away... and it isn't working.

Believe me, I probably wouldn't be toying with the "hardbody" skill for those moments if there were more than three priority slots. Because then I could just use them and the logic within the grapples to set those up.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Wonderland » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:17 pm

Oh I see, a deliberate strategy of keeping random late match pins active to get those kinds of near falls,and using Hardbody to hopefully counter any potential shitty actual finishes. Interesting! I can see how this might (or might not) work in a closed system of one's own edits, but if they're going to be allowed to roam free and play with the masses, could get tricky. Keep us posted with your further testing though!

Also, if you haven't already, check out geese's ECHO strategy thread. You might pick up some info on how to incorporate late match pins appropriately according to very specific moveset choices. And it's just an overall fantastic FirePro theory post with plenty of food for thought and boner for brain.
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