Personality Logic redux

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orochigeese
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby orochigeese » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:54 am

kikrusher99 wrote:
heelsinc wrote:
Wonderland wrote:Turn on Cut Play option in match settings.


THANK YOU!!!!! Now WTF does Cut Play mean? :lol:


CUT out the horse PLAY :lol:


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kikrusher99
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby kikrusher99 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:05 am

This guide is great. But can you explain touchwork?

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Severla 2.0
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby Severla 2.0 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:54 pm

Not to discredit Maik's OG post, but a reminder that LordVermin's old FPR Logic Guide is still quite handy

https://web.archive.org/web/20080203140 ... id=lv-misc

There's the wayback machine post of it, although if someone wants to copy-pasta it, that'll work too.

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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby Spunk » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:54 pm

Severla 2.0 wrote:Not to discredit Maik's OG post, but a reminder that LordVermin's old FPR Logic Guide is still quite handy

https://web.archive.org/web/20080203140 ... id=lv-misc

There's the wayback machine post of it, although if someone wants to copy-pasta it, that'll work too.


The only problem is the personality stuff is still from the dark ages of what we THOUGHT it did and not what it really did. I'm still coming to grips with this. I had a guide I cooked up for WILD that was similar, if not a bit more abrasive (oh youth) and I look back now at it and shake my head at how WRONG the personality shit was in parts.

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orochigeese
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby orochigeese » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:01 pm

You mean your "Shit you should know" series? I wouldn't call it abrasive but it was certainly colorful :lol:

I kept them alive for you all these years :D

http://ogjoshi.proboards.com/thread/287/sysh-choosing-moveset
http://ogjoshi.proboards.com/thread/286/sysh-cpu-logic

Your strategies and overall way of looking at edit building is still totally ON POINT. But many old dynamics we thought we knew weren't true and some true stuff may have changed from FPR to FPW. I remember back when we thought High Flex meant adjusting logic of discretion to the opponent's discretion :lol:

In the waning days of FPR, Jason Blackhart and I collaborated on this guide.

I still stand by a lot of it in regards to the simming strategies (mostly: patience and spotting trends rather than panicking after individual match results) but I realize that a lot of the RNG stuff (like, for example, the fact that the game always starts from the same number) has changed. I also don't know if Spike changed other things in recent updates: like the way certain categories get prioritized over others and stuff like that.
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby ryottime222 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:54 pm

Quick question. I am not sure if it was covered in this thread or not, but I am running into an issue that my Edits are spending way too much time near the ropes and corner. This makes for good matches but big moves being done in the ropes every time. Is there a way to tweak this with Discretion or Cooperation? Or is it just something with the CPU that I am unable to work with? Thanks guys!

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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby orochigeese » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:53 pm

Yeah, this is a recurring issue in Fire Pro. One thing you could try is increasing the "stand back" or "circle around" options for "Stand up" category. That way the edits will try to strike or grapple less and move around more, allowing them a little variety in ring positioning.

Sometimes edits will just keep their attention on each other and not concentrate on moving about the ring. Sadly, there isn't much that can be done besides my above suggestion and relying on chance (like, for example, a vertical suplex could re-position both edits dramatically, or send one outside the ring, forcing a "reset").
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IamAres
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby IamAres » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:16 pm

This is why I like to keep the front facelock->elbow in the mix at high damage. I know a lot of people advise you to take it out, which I think dates back to FPD when it would end matches pretty frequently. But with ten priority slots (or even three, TBH) that's not the huge issue it once was. But leaving it in and having it around the 10% range or so really seems to help them occasionally pull the fight back away from the ropes.

It also helps keep them out of that lower corner where the referee dare not tread, thus giving him a really long run every time every time there's a pin. (Usually to tell you it's a rope break.) :oops: Nothing's perfect, but it seems to help.
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby orochigeese » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:24 am

IamAres wrote:This is why I like to keep the front facelock->elbow in the mix at high damage. I know a lot of people advise you to take it out, which I think dates back to FPD when it would end matches pretty frequently. But with ten priority slots (or even three, TBH) that's not the huge issue it once was. But leaving it in and having it around the 10% range or so really seems to help them occasionally pull the fight back away from the ropes.


That's good advice :idea: The front facelock can also set up a Corner to Center move too. Once Spike fixes the glitch from the past update, we can go back to proper down logic. That means that there's really no reason to have random pins at near death for downed moves given the fact we have 10 sequences. Random subs could still come from the front facelock->elbow but I have random subs pretty much eliminated now too at ND.

Having front facelock is really good for tag team edits too, especially with the setting that moves the opponent toward the corners. I think that's low discretion but I can't remember for sure :lol:

IamAres wrote:It also helps keep them out of that lower corner where the referee dare not tread, thus giving him a really long run every time every time there's a pin. (Usually to tell you it's a rope break.) :oops: Nothing's perfect, but it seems to help.


Spoiler: show
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby IamAres » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:47 pm

orochigeese wrote:That means that there's really no reason to have random pins at near death for downed moves given the fact we have 10 sequences. Random subs could still come from the front facelock->elbow but I have random subs pretty much eliminated now too at ND.


The one use I've thought of so far is if you want your hardcore guys to be able to pin after weapon shots. Unless they add "weapon strike" as a selectable move in priority logic, there's no real way to do that with priorities. Not a huge issue (and not big enough, I think, to give most guys random pins back) but it'd be nice for a few guys. As for the submissions, if it's your finisher, I don't really consider it so much "random" as "trying to win the match." If it's not your (or at least A) finisher then it probably shouldn't be in the ND logic. (Current logic borkiness notwithstanding.) Even if you just want a specific setup for a submission and don't want it happening "randomly" that's pretty easy to manage with 10 priorities.

orochigeese wrote:
Spoiler: show
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:lol: Exactly.
Also slightly there's something happy, so enjoy it!

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DynamiteDM
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby DynamiteDM » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:38 pm

IamAres wrote:
orochigeese wrote:ND logic.


ND logic setting doesnt exist. It's wrongly translated Large category...
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby Carlzilla » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:55 am

Going to confirm or debunk a few things...all of these use direct viewing of the source code as a reference for my stance...

Showmanship: As far as the code is concerned this has NO effect on move choice at all. Any evidence of this in simmed matches is purely coincidental.

Discretion: What you said was pretty much correct, and it 100% plays into tree-of-woe chance. To debunk some of the other comments here: it has a nil factor in any move choice other than that.

Here's the tree of woe code from the ProcessGrapple_Corner code:

Code: Select all

   
if (global::MatchMisc.GetParamRate(plObj.HP) < 37.5f && global::MatchMisc.mRate100Check(33) && !global::MatchMisc.mRate100Check(aiParam.discreation))
   {
      ...do tree of woe shit here...
   }


simplified, what that says is this:
If the opponents hit points are greater than 37.5% of the total (which is 65535) AND a check is passed that 33 is greater than a randomly generated number between 1 and 100 (basically 33% of the time) AND a check is passed that your wrestlers discretion is NOT greater than a randomly generated number between 1 and 100 then do the tree of woe. So a lower discretion would definitely lead to more tree of woe attacks, and a 100% in discretion would disable them entirely, since it will never be able to return a number higher than 100...

Flexibility: While it's 100% true that flexibility will alter Irish whip attempts against the shoot style wrestlers, and Irish whip attempts in the octogon regardless of opponent type...it does NOT effect move selection. Again, any evidence of this in simmed matches is 100% coincidence from a code standpoint.

Cooperation: Most of what you posted is true...however, strangely enough, the doomsday device setup does not check against cooperation in the way the other situations do. Any wrestler who has a move that is possible to perform in that situation with a cooperation value higher than 20 will attempt the spot...without any sort of check so a higher cooperation value does not make this more or less likely.
Last edited by Carlzilla on Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby Carlzilla » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:55 am

DynamiteDM wrote:
IamAres wrote:
orochigeese wrote:ND logic.


ND logic setting doesnt exist. It's wrongly translated Large category...


Incorrect.

There are two damage scales LMH and LHF

Low Medium High
Low High Fatal

They have different thresholds for each of the 6 categories you may fall into, and only one scale can be checked for any given logic situation.

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Carlzilla
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby Carlzilla » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:58 am

ryottime222 wrote:Quick question. I am not sure if it was covered in this thread or not, but I am running into an issue that my Edits are spending way too much time near the ropes and corner. This makes for good matches but big moves being done in the ropes every time. Is there a way to tweak this with Discretion or Cooperation? Or is it just something with the CPU that I am unable to work with? Thanks guys!


There is a check for pins near the ropes...if a wrestler has higher discretion they will attempt to drag their opponent away from the ropes first...they also tend to move the match to the center of the ring when using front headlocks...so don't turn them off at high damage.

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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby Carlzilla » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:07 am

kikrusher99 wrote:This guide is great. But can you explain touchwork?


The only thing it controls is the threshold of damage/spirit damage received before a tag is considered by the AI...here's the exact formula.

Code: Select all

   
   int num2 = 53248 - aiParam.touchCond * 409;
   if (this.PlObj.HP + this.PlObj.SP + (float)num2 >= player.HP + player.SP)
   {
      return false;
   }


aiParam.touchCond is the touchwork value...

What that basically says is that if your combined spirit and health + whatever (53248 - (touchwork *409)) equals is greater than or equal to your tag partner's combined health and spirit you won't tag out.

Since the touchwork is multiplied and then subtracted from the control number (53248), a higher touch-work will lead to a smaller control number being added to your combined totals, making it more likely that you'll tag out.

Also worth noting, wrestlers with a COOPERATION stat of 20 or less have to pass an additional check to tag.

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Carlzilla
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby Carlzilla » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:15 am

MBXfilms wrote:You have the Cooperation, but nothing about Touchwork. I think people are confused on it also because I've seen some Tag Team wrestlers with 20%...
You would want practically 100% on a tag team wrestler, a specialist, right?


No. ALL touchwork does is lowers the threshold of damage a wrestler must receive before a tag is considered.

Some wrestlers took a beating...think of the Rock'n'Roll Express...or Marty Jannetty they would take a serious beating before tagging out...this is to simulate that aspect of tag team wrestling.

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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby Kristofferson » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 am

I'm pleased someone's looked at this from a technical level rather than reading into things from sims alone as they can mislead or trick the mind.

While well meaning I thought the OP presented itself with too much authority for what was essentially an educated guess. Especially since it seemed to hold court with stuff that had already been debunked in Fire Pro Returns by Jason Blackheart.

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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby DynamiteDM » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:27 pm

Carlzilla wrote:
DynamiteDM wrote:
IamAres wrote:


ND logic setting doesnt exist. It's wrongly translated Large category...


Incorrect.

There are two damage scales LMH and LHF

Low Medium High
Low High Fatal

They have different thresholds for each of the 6 categories you may fall into, and only one scale can be checked for any given logic situation.


But still they are treated the same in gameplay situations. Engine code my be different, but I have no knowledge on such matters.
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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby soak314 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:02 am

Look at all this MEAT and POTATOES :hahaha:

Fuckin aces. Thanks much for the infodump, Carl, it pretty much double confirms a lot of what the devs said that one stream. Finally knowing the math for the tree of woe is awesome.

DynamiteDM wrote:
DynamiteDM wrote:
But still they are treated the same in gameplay situations. Engine code my be different, but I have no knowledge on such matters.


If you sim two edits with really high defenses and low offenses, the kind that can drag out medium damage into a lengthy phase, you'll start seeing overlaps where they do Large category moves for both grapple and down.

As in, third category moves for grapple going into second category moves for down.

Eventually, the edit will go into ND, and then both states will be in third category.

I also thought it was just a mistranslation in the early weeks of FPW but started seein differently after a whole buncha sims.

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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby heelsinc » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:10 am

Carlzilla wrote:
MBXfilms wrote:You have the Cooperation, but nothing about Touchwork. I think people are confused on it also because I've seen some Tag Team wrestlers with 20%...
You would want practically 100% on a tag team wrestler, a specialist, right?


No. ALL touchwork does is lowers the threshold of damage a wrestler must receive before a tag is considered.

Some wrestlers took a beating...think of the Rock'n'Roll Express...or Marty Jannetty they would take a serious beating before tagging out...this is to simulate that aspect of tag team wrestling.


WOW guess I have to go back and change a bunch of my edits that are at 100% because I was under the impression this led to double team moves.

Thanks for this info!

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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby Carlzilla » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:16 am

heelsinc wrote:
Carlzilla wrote:
MBXfilms wrote:You have the Cooperation, but nothing about Touchwork. I think people are confused on it also because I've seen some Tag Team wrestlers with 20%...
You would want practically 100% on a tag team wrestler, a specialist, right?


No. ALL touchwork does is lowers the threshold of damage a wrestler must receive before a tag is considered.

Some wrestlers took a beating...think of the Rock'n'Roll Express...or Marty Jannetty they would take a serious beating before tagging out...this is to simulate that aspect of tag team wrestling.


WOW guess I have to go back and change a bunch of my edits that are at 100% because I was under the impression this led to double team moves.

Thanks for this info!


Cooperation is what you're looking for.

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Re: Personality Logic redux

Postby IamAres » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:12 am

Although it may INDIRECTLY lead to more double teaming, as all the tagging in and out provides more opportunities TO double team. No aspect of logic exists in a vacuum.
Also slightly there's something happy, so enjoy it!


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