Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

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Dude Cactus
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Dude Cactus » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:35 pm

First: I'll be sure to check that post by Geese out.

Second: The concept of messing with "hardbody" does have the concern that it might be something that ultimately only works within a closed circuit. Sure it may make some intense matches, but only when those edits are playing by the same rules. The chances of it becoming a complete disaster against other edits that are outside of that are most likely really high.

That may be the next phase of testing... but something tells me the results are going to be "edit with hardbody" beats "edit without hardbody" in anti-climatic fashion.

Then again I've only simulated three matches so far with this set up. Two ended with a signature spot into fall because of priorities and the third ended with a signature submission hold. All three matches ended in the twenty minute plus range and scored ninety plus percent on the ratings.

However, I've had matches with no "hardbody" skill and zero percent for pins in the critical phase go just as long and score roughly the same. And that was just messing with the offensive and defensive parameters.

The only difference was that the falls only would happen at that phase of the match when the priorities kicked in.

I'm thinking of probably doing a league with the edits I have with "hardbody" and then probably doing one without and seeing how much the results really vary.

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Wonderland
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Wonderland » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:44 pm

This is what FirePro is all about. Experimentation and novel ideas and testing and results! Btw... any ETA on a Dude Cactus on Workshop......? :mrgreen:
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Dude Cactus
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Dude Cactus » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:51 pm

Uh...

I might have one in time.

Still wrestling around with the visuals for the character.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Old Baby » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:33 am

So let's say you have two edits who use a lot of early-mid throws and have german suplex as their finishers. One is a main eventer and the other is a low midcard act. Hypothetically, they should only have 1-2 point difference in offensive throw parameter. It makes sense, as the defensive parameters could then be used to tell the story of how long Wrestler A would have to beat up Wrestler B to break his spirit.

When creating my own edits, I've always used a scale for parameters that's based on card position. So, for instance 80's Hulk Hogan's lowest parameter would be a 7 unless it was a category he was particularly bad at, while 80's Tito Santana's BEST parameter would be a 7. That kept everyone winning and losing when they were supposed to, but I never gave much consideration to how moves were used.
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soak314
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby soak314 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:11 am

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Oh, and excellent thread Wondy. I'll probably contribute something more meaningful later :D

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Slick_36
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Slick_36 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:53 am

Old Baby wrote:So let's say you have two edits who use a lot of early-mid throws and have german suplex as their finishers. One is a main eventer and the other is a low midcard act. Hypothetically, they should only have 1-2 point difference in offensive throw parameter. It makes sense, as the defensive parameters could then be used to tell the story of how long Wrestler A would have to beat up Wrestler B to break his spirit.

When creating my own edits, I've always used a scale for parameters that's based on card position. So, for instance 80's Hulk Hogan's lowest parameter would be a 7 unless it was a category he was particularly bad at, while 80's Tito Santana's BEST parameter would be a 7. That kept everyone winning and losing when they were supposed to, but I never gave much consideration to how moves were used.

I think that's why it's great to build around the community's work and get a core of wrestlers going to base those things on for everyone. Pro wrestling is all about cooperation, after all.

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unimportantguy
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby unimportantguy » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:05 am

I don't know how helpful this is as a piece of advice, but the thing that I've subscribed to is to make edits that have the matches you want them to have with the opponents you want them to face. For a long time, I tried to tweak edits to have good matches with a variety of different opponents, and it just became a constant, stressful nightmare, because different people have different ideas about how edits should work. I now make my edits to work with my own edits, and if they work with others, well that's nice, but I focus on making sure my edits have enjoyable matches with each other over anything else.

Take, for example, parameters. I probably don't have a single edit that could stand up, parameter-wise, to the theoretical Hogan edit oldbaby is talking about a few posts above me. My most powerful edits still have individual params as low as 2. For me to try to make my edits work against such an edit, I would have to completely overhaul the way I think about parameters. Instead, I would be much more likely to make my own Hogan edit that conforms to my own ideas about how parameters work. This is why I think that the Workshop, while nice, isn't a super-core essential part of the way I play, because everybody has different ideas about how an edit should be put together.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Stangboy88 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:25 pm

unimportantguy wrote:I don't know how helpful this is as a piece of advice, but the thing that I've subscribed to is to make edits that have the matches you want them to have with the opponents you want them to face. For a long time, I tried to tweak edits to have good matches with a variety of different opponents, and it just became a constant, stressful nightmare, because different people have different ideas about how edits should work. I now make my edits to work with my own edits, and if they work with others, well that's nice, but I focus on making sure my edits have enjoyable matches with each other over anything else.

Take, for example, parameters. I probably don't have a single edit that could stand up, parameter-wise, to the theoretical Hogan edit oldbaby is talking about a few posts above me. My most powerful edits still have individual params as low as 2. For me to try to make my edits work against such an edit, I would have to completely overhaul the way I think about parameters. Instead, I would be much more likely to make my own Hogan edit that conforms to my own ideas about how parameters work. This is why I think that the Workshop, while nice, isn't a super-core essential part of the way I play, because everybody has different ideas about how an edit should be put together.


VERY Helpful! I am making a roster for my fed atm and this was the first problem I ran into. I was trying to make edits that could work with anyone (2 of them are submitted for tournaments) and the results were all over the place. Sometimes a 6 minute squash that was boring to watch and other times 25 minute epics that had great flow and timing.

I am not trying to do this anymore and instead basing my edits on different tiers based on where they will be on the card at the start of the fed.

Thanks again.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby orochigeese » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:12 pm

I 100000% agree that you need to select your opponents carefully when making an edit. I'd argue that "opponent selection" is one of the absolute most important things to do when simming and making an edit. This goes even more for e-fed edits which are meant to be booked against each other with a plan in mind. UIG hit the nail on the head about focusing his opponents for each new edit.

The Workshop is awesome, and revolutionary, for this community but not against every individual edit! :lol:

In my "Best Tests Around" guide, I said this:

(The first half is about testing edits but the second half is about creating edits with opponents in mind)

Spoiler: show
VII. My strategies for testing an edit.

As do many others (mentioned in Section IX), I take a tiered approach in which edits I choose to face a new edit.

Here is the slow and steady "Gauntlet" of the types of edits that I use when testing a new one.

1) "Control" Edit 1: Even though this isn't a real science due to the RNG and percentages, I do think that attempting a scientific approach is helpful in testing old and especially new edits. An opponent you know is the "control" and the new edit is the "test". It is crucial for early testing of any new edit that you have a "control" edit. The first "control" is an edit you know extraordinarily well because you have watched tons of their matches and even made the edit with it's purposes, strategies, and trends in mind. It is good to have at least two control edits: one that is a "face" and one that is a "heel". Both of them are probably two of your simpler and more predictable edits, likely a rookie. So if something is "off" in a match with an edit you know really well, it's PROBABLY due to the new edit.

Keep in mind that any "control" edit that you simmed tons of times is likely an edit that you made a while ago. It's possible that your edit making has evolved or changed since you made them and any oddities in the match are due to obsolete logic strategies you used for the older edit. Sometimes a "control" test actually makes an old edit better by showing how much better the new edit is in some ways. So it's not true that anything "off" in a match is ALWAYS due to the new edit. Once again, you need to see "trends" before you know for sure what is causing any problems. If everything is going well after a few sims, then I move onto the next edit in this "gauntlet".

2) "Control" Edit 2: These are usually other edits I have made but that I don't know as well as Control Edit 1. However, I still have a lot of familiarity with and confidence in them. I still want some degree of predictability but I also like testing the new edit against someone with more logic variation. See how they do against someone who can use a number of different strategies (or a hybrid) in one match. That way you can test your edit's defenses and ways to cope. You want someone that isn't too much stronger or weaker then your edit. Control Edit 2 isn't that much of a step removed from Control Edit 1 in terms of giving your edit a consistent simming challenge. You still want to make sure that you understand the match more then you are potentially entertained by the styles clash. You're still learning very much about how your edit works and so too much unpredictability or power contrast from an opponent isn't good. This is only a small step beyond Control 1 but it's a further step into the deep end.

3) "Control" Edit 3: This edit is higher up on the card (meaning should be more likely to win in a hierarchy) then Control edit 1 or 2. This is an edit I'm more familiar with then Control Edit 2 but maybe a little less then Control Edit 1. If you have a stronger edit for Control Edit 2 AND one that you aren't as familiar with, any problems in the match can be harder to explain. You are still taking gradual steps in how different the test edits are from the first one and from your test edit. You want someone you know really well here but that is more likely to win. It is okay if your new edit wins a few of these matches but you want to make sure they aren't on a totally even keel. If your new edit keeps winning, make sure it isn't a problem with the control edit. If your new edit and Control edit 1 were meant to be on the same level and were, then Control edit 3 may be the one out of whack in your hierarchy.

4) "Control" Edit 4: Now I start to use edits which I made that are a lot more variable and unpredictable then the earlier ones. Some of these edits may have very experimental styles like "face down" pin strategy or "very heavy on striking or submissions"). They may also be radically different in card placement. This is the first of two phases where you can see how well-rounded your edit is and how they are able to adapt.

5) "Control" Edit 5: Here I use edits from other people whose edit making and specific edits I know really well. It's important to make sure that your style of edit making for this specific new edit meshes well with other people's edits if you are in a multi-person e-fed. This really speaks to the well-roundedness of your edit. Often you'll have to adjust for small equalizers like stats or ukemi. You'll want to test against edits from others that you know well, edits from handlers who have similar edit philosophies to you, and edits you just outright love to watch.

5) Expected short term and long-term opponents: You may already know who your edit is going up against in prospective matches or long-term rivalries. It's good to have your edit ready to face them before you send it off to people. No edit exists in a "vacuum". You're going to have opponents and so you want to make sure your edit puts on the their best matches possible against those expected opponents and rivals in the same division.

In fact, sometimes I'll actually skip a few testing steps and start with this one. If I made a new edit with a very specific storyline/feud opponent in mind, then they may be the first opponent I test against. A few years ago I made an edit named Kyle Walker with the intent purpose of having him be a vicious antagonist to Orochi Geese. As a result, I had Kyle immediately simming against Geese cause that was the money match. Unless Kyle put on an excellent match with Geese, Kyle's edit was pretty much worthless to me. Of course, it wasn't enough for him to ONLY put on a good match with Geese. Once I was happy with their matches, I then had him face other prospective opponents. As a result, Kyle's matches with some of my test edits aren't great but his matches against upper card rival story wrestlers have been excellent. That's a balance I'm very happy with as it's the reason for his edit.


Prioritization matters. No edit can have 5 star matches with every edit they encounter. There are way too many different ways of edit making and some style clashes can't be compensated for. But if your edit can put their on their best matches (and have that be a trend) against his expected opponents, then your edit making is optimal.

Part of that prioritization means knowing when not to change your edit even if there are mismatches.

I will never make an edit better against non-rivals if those changes makes the edit worse against his main rivals. My top e-fed edit feud was Orochi Geese vs. Thunder Strike. Any time I would change one of their edits in a way that would make their matches worse, I'd try to compensate for it or outright undo the change. I'm not interested in having an edit work with every edit imaginable. (There are literally thousands of FPR edits). For my e-fed edits, matches with their top rivals out-prioritize matches with random edits they won't face. As a result, I try to strike this overall balance when making and testing my edits. They should be able to put on:

5 star matches vs. approximately 5-10 of their top enemies and rivals.
4 star matches vs. approximately 10-15 of other rivals in the edit's division and low intensity feud opponents.
3 star matches vs. approximately 20+ other wrestlers in your promotion that you may end up facing or have something in common with your edit.
2 star matches vs. wrestlers not in your promotion (ones with a totally different point scale).
1 star match vs. wrestlers you know nothing about and may have been made with radically different logic standards or strategies and point structures that you used. Basically, the 1 star here comes from your edit at least following your own guidelines for him even if the other edit is all over the place. You can't control the opponent.


That guide also has a second post (Section IX as referred to above in the spoilers) detailing strategies from other community members about creating/testing.


Also:

soak314 wrote:
Spoiler: show
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Dying with laughter right now :hahaha:


Also, let me say how f'n phenomenal Wondy is at explaining all of this and spearheading this project 8-)
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Reckless101
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Reckless101 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:55 am

This is such a great thread! Wondy's opening post was perfectly explained, detailed and touched on many of the potholes many new creators fall in. I cannot agree with it more. And everyone has been following up with great tips. Kudos everyone! :D

I'd like to add to the wealth. These are little details, but hopefully they can help in some way:

Tree-of-Woe
I'm not sure if there is a specific stat that causes an edit to position their opponent this way to be honest, but when it does occur I'd like to take advantage. The strike you perform on the opponent in this position is always the "Standing (MED)" attack. Taking this into account, I always have some sort of kick in this slot so it looks like my edit is kicking their opponent in their stomach/chest/ribs. However, if your edit attacks the legs then having a punch/elbow in this slot would make it look like your edit is slugging at the legs/knee. Same with the arms and the "Low Kick" move.

Doomsday Device
This is a fairly rare occurrence (even more so if your edit has a low "Cooperation" rating), but like with the tree-of-woe position, I like to have this area covered for when it does come up. During a normal tag match, your edit's partner may set up the opponent for him/her to come crashing into them with a Doomsday Device attack. This doesn't have to be the "Diving Lariat" of course (but it could be!) as long as it's in the "Jump onto Post (BIG)" slot. And equally as important, make sure this move is an attack that doesn't force a unique sell from the opponent. So moves like the Moonsault Attack, Diving Body Attack, Blockbuster or Diving Huracanrana won't work. These moves have to be an attack that causes a generic knockdown state for the opponent, like the Diving Lariat, Missile Dropkick, Diving Shoulderblock even the Tope con Giro would work here. Like I said earlier, a Doomsday Device won't happen all the time but when it does it'll be a shame to miss out on a very cool and rare moment.

Visual Representation
I always found when talking about logic it's super helpful to get a visual on what's being talked about (One of the many reasons why Wonderland's Dojo is so great BTW). Before I go further I'd like to reiterate one of Wondy's main themes on this post. Like with anything regarding the edit making process, it's all primarily subjective. What works for me probably won't vibe with you. So my settings are to help anyone struggling with some general advice and guidelines I follow after working with Returns for years. I'm only giving you the foundation, how you build your house is up to you. Anyways, here are examples of the strong grapple section, one of the most frequently utilized section in matches, using Mark Spirals, my main male edit, and Cassandra Blair, my main female edit, who wrestle different styles.

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This is what Mark's strong grapple section looks like currently. One key point includes me always including at least one "medium" strength grapple in this section, in Mark's case it's the Frakensteiner Whip. This makes me feel like there is more of a smoother transition from the "middle of the match" to "late match". A lot of the strong grapples (minus the Russian Leg Sweep, which STILL boggles my mind it's a "Strong Grapple" :lol:) include big power moves, slams, complex suplexes and striking combinations. So, for me, having that new "medium" grapple start to show up late match eases the curve more, so to speak. Another key point here is the Ushi Goroshi. It's the highest number at 5% because I want that increased chance for Mark to perform it and follow-up with the Phenomenal Forearm, which requires more specific positioning. While the forearm isn't one of Mark's match enders, it is one of his spots that I'd like to see in a match as often as possible (without him spamming it). The last two points include the "Styles Clash" and the "Spinning Vertical Brainbuster". The Styles Clash is his Finisher and the Brainbuster is one of his Signatures. I set up all my edits by having all their Signatures (and Finishers of course) be potential match enders. Some Signatures are rarer than others, as is the case for Mark's Brainbuster. I feel 3%-5% are the sweet spots for primary finishers in the standing grapple position and 1%-2% to be great for rare moves in the same area.

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Here are Cassandra's strong grapples. While there are some similarities with Mark's setup, there are some distinct differences. One of the biggest differences is the odd placement of the "Triangle Lancer". Cassandra is a submission specialist that focuses primarily on the arms. This culminates into her primary finisher, the Cattle Mutilation. As a submission based wrestler, I wanted her to have a submission to tear away at her opponent's arm, but I don't want her to ever end a match with it. This is why the Triangle Lancer is only done at "Medium" damage. This makes sure Cassandra will never win with the move and it makes for great build up and pacing. Her weaker arm damaging moves leads into the Triangle Lancer which leads into her Cattle Mutilation. The reason I'm showing this is to help avoid the scenario Wondy pointed out in his original post. No one wants to see an awesome match end in a weak fashion. I see a lot of edits that have these submissions, that are mostly strong grapples, in the strong grapple section. The issue with that is that it could lead to a potential finish that you may feel is anticlimactic because you know you didn't want your edit's matches to end that way. So, in short, if you want to use strong grapple submissions, but not win with them, then only place them in the "Medium" damage section only.

And since I mentioned it a few times... :lol:

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This is Cassandra's "Opponent Down, Face Up" logic setup. I have her Cattle Mutilation at 15% at "Critical Condition" only, because as her main finish I want her to perform it when she truly thinks she can make her opponent tap with it. Then I have a weaker submission move in "Reverse Chikenwing Clutch" to help build up to it, and then I have her stop performing it late in the match. Another point is the pin frequency. I ALWAYS have my edits pin at 15% at "Medium" damage and any flash pins set at 10% at "Medium" damage as well. This is to help create basic match psychology. It's common for real wrestlers to attempt a pin after a simple suplex or bodyslam. Even though the wrestler knows it won't end the match it still creates that suspense to maintain engagement with the fans.

Hopefully, this serves anyone well that enjoys a visual representation of some of the topics that were discussed. If anyone has any questions or would like to see more examples then you're more than welcomed to shoot me a private message. If I feel like it could help others then I'll repost it here. Again, I absolutely love this thread idea. :D
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Wonderland
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Wonderland » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:00 am

You guys are fucking fantastic. Mark, that's an excellent overview of end-match logic and psychology crafting. Thanks All for contributions and conversation. Thanks Soak for laughtribution.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Old Baby » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:10 pm

Been implementing some of the things I've learned here about parameters, thinking of them in terms of match pacing instead of a rating of proficiency. I'm using Fire Pro Anthology edits, which as everyone knows, are not really designed for sims. By dropping offensive parameters down to 5 or lower, except in instances where that particular move category is less oft used or only used when the opponent is at large or critical damage, I'm getting much better sims with these than before.

:markout:
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby craziej2k » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:51 am

Reckless, would it be possible for you to post a screenshot of your front grapple logic for one of your edits? The numbers shown in the images you posted are soooooooooo different from mine I'd love to see how you spread your %'s out

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby orochigeese » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:08 pm

Reckless' post is so completely on point 8-)

I'd wake up to Goosemas morning (with extra egg nog :goose: ) if one day Reckless wrote a complete guide that combined his edit-making mastery with his character/storytelling genius 8-)


Here's another tip for people: don't get used to one logic-standard or approach so much (even if it works to create the matches that you want to see) that you stop experimenting with new approaches & ideas for existing and new edits.

The most fun I've ever had with edit-making came over the past year when I tried out new strategies for FPR edits centering mainly on unique ideas of how to end matches. I didn't get the "perfect fit" right away but I eventually got there and had so much fun conceiving of and testing the ideas.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Wonderland » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:35 pm

Awesome point geeseman. And if I may ECHO your sentiment to add that, the OP of this thread is definitely just intended as a starting point for new edit makers to avoid common pitfalls, and not a mandatory standard of practice to be forever adhered to. The fun of this game is creativity and experimentation! Not following formulas.

Also, holy shit an edit + character guide from Reckless would be a supreme burrito of excellence. I'm hungry...
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby soak314 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:02 am

Reckless101 wrote: This is to help create basic match psychology. It's common for real wrestlers to attempt a pin after a simple suplex or bodyslam. Even though the wrestler knows it won't end the match it still creates that suspense to maintain engagement with the fans.


:markout:

This boy know what he talkin bout

It's hard to engineer "pin after every fancy move you do or you won't look like you mean it" to a truly reliable level, but a high pinrate at medium can indeed do the trick nicely.

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby orochigeese » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:42 pm

Early and mid match random pins are also great to simulate rookie face earnestness and optimism, heel arrogance, and a sense of each side trying to "best each other" psychologically even if they know the finish attempt is premature.

Wonderland wrote:Awesome point geeseman. And if I may ECHO your sentiment to add that,


What you did thar = I see it :D

Wonderland wrote: the OP of this thread is definitely just intended as a starting point for new edit makers to avoid common pitfalls, and not a mandatory standard of practice to be forever adhered to. The fun of this game is creativity and experimentation! Not following formulas.


Oh yeah, this thread is awesome for advocating for that very flexibility, uniqueness, and creativity while also being an integral and requested starting point for rookies to get a foothold on some basic ideas and strategies. I remember how much I wanted some specific guidance and general "best practices" strategies when I started out.

My post was more along the lines of "some of the most fun you can have, especially once you get an idea of basic strategems like the ones offered in this thread, is to try some different ideas out."

It's like jazz (or jello pudding or kodak film). You can best "break, bend, experiment with" the "rules" once you truly know them. If you try to play jazz before you learn notes, chords, and overall musical theory, you end up with a mish-mosh. Same with an edit - you need that starting points of actual knowledge and overall shared sense (of how FP edit tools leads to match construction & psychology) for basic knowledge and basic competence. You get that from hearing tried and true approaches that have proven useful for people here.

Then you can start experimenting by changing up some ideas. But you need a foundation first to get reliable results. This thread will be the foundation (and higher levels) of many people's training.

Your work in this thread and awesome Dojo revival has been one of the absolute best sources of guidance and entertainment for new and returning FP fans. You are doing what you did with FPR but on a new level. It has been personally gratifying for me to watch you do this for many reasons :D

Listen to this bearded man, folks. Let him massage the truth into your willing and delicate haunches :nuderdance:


Never stop building the future you want to live in. It's up to us to lay the foundation. Lay it hard. Drill it down. Apply cement of a proper viscosity.


Wonderland wrote:Also, holy shit an edit + character guide from Reckless would be a supreme burrito of excellence. I'm hungry...


I'm re-ordering the community Chipotle-away.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby CF_Dawnbr3ak3r » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:51 am

I don't adhere to most of these ideas, and never really have, yet I still manage to make working, competitive edits. I'm a magician or something.

I've noticed that my edits live and die by their breathing, spirit, and recovery rates along with their Ukemi percentages.

Certain special skills also help. Many of my luchadors have the Stardom skill because they play to the crowd a lot, want them to participate, and feed off of that energy to win matches. They do a lot of taunting, some an insane amount, such as Tali Triton, who has nearly 40% chance to execute a taunt at any given moment - she still loses however and has lost plenty of times. I'm almost certain Stardom is the same reason that VEGA can cruise her way through a match, and for a while, she was the "Destroyer", often ending matches faster than you can blink - her finish in the Reincarnation running move.

My luchadors and highflyers in general have high breathing and recovery rates so they can "go-go-go" for a while. It really helps keep that high pace going for an extended period of time. This works for me, and may not be desirable for others. However, to counter this, their breathing, recovery, and spirit rates drop to Poor when bleeding. As a result, these edits are more likely to lose when busted open. This is especially common when facing hardcore oriented edits - as such, I seldom put them in hardcore matches because it's not very fun to watch most of the time.

That being said, I have a few edits with the Blood special skill. This emulates the "Hardcore resurrection" comeback spot. I use this on two edits currently: Hardcore Bunny and Mako Tagruta respectively. Hardcore Bunny is a deranged, extremely unstable luchadora (ironically enough). Mako is a cannibalistic shark monster with a penchant for blood and body parts - he's kind of like Marsh, but weaker. These two edits are heel edits, meant to pose a challenge for my other edits to surpass.

I have a variety of characters. Some of them act as "boss-level" characters, whereas some are intended to be inexperienced in the art of wrestling and are learning and honing their skills. Some are ridiculously gimmicky and shouldn't be in a wrestling ring. One of the best examples I've come up with is easily my new edit, TIKI: She's a witch doctor and can spit poison and fire at will, sometimes rapidly in succession. This sets her apart from some of my other edits, however this concept is similar to Cherr Nobyll who uses them for a priority spot. My point is, the gimmick is pretty nuts, and it's not something that I've noticed is very common. It shakes things up, especially when she's put in matches against "regular" people. And yeah, she loses matches too.

Most of my edits sit on 20/20/20 for their Ukemi progression. My heels are generally 0/0/50 to emulate dominance in the early and middle part of the match but drop off near the end - but this isn't always the case, especially because my monster heels tend to also be damage sponges - like Joana Paea, who can take a ton of punishment before being defeated. As a result of her low Ukemi late match, this causes her to be eliminated early on in Battle Royals and Tag Team Elimination matches. Occasionally edits will be 20/40/0, which is for my Cena/Hogan style edits, who exhibit a heroic comeback when paired with the Rage skill.

When it comes to offensive parameters, my edits usually display a 7 or 8 in one dominant category and will be around 5 or 6 for other areas, and even less for areas where they see little to no use at all. This conflicts with the idea that "the more moves of an attribute the edit has the less the parameter rating should be." Some edits have two or three 7 parameters and drastically lowered elsewhere. These are edits that specialize in a certain form of fighting style.

One such edit is Kaishida Tachibana: She's considered a "mid-playthrough boss-type" and will rushdown the opponent to try and defeat them as quickly as possible. She has 7s in Punch and Kick and does a lot of punching and kicking as you could probably guess. To counter this, she has poor recovery, breathing, and spirit rates. She'll win 10 minutes or she'll lose just as quickly. As a result, I will almost never book her in a championship match setting. However, I do book her to shake things up in the middle of a Battle Royal.

My damage sponge edits - I have a few of them, have multiple 7s and 8s in their defense parameters. They're intended to be difficult to keep down, but don't always win. Jessica Shields is probably one of my better damage sponge babyface edits. She'll take a lot of damage, but may not be able to etch out that big comeback.

Flash pins are a gimmick for my edits. Some of them will try to win at all costs, using every pin move they know how to execute. Mira Torres is the prime example on my roster. School Boy, Esparda, Lighting Speed, you name it, she's probably got it. I never have ground pins over 0% and almost always priority a signature to a grounded pinfall. If it's the Rare finish, I'll priority it to a pinfall as well. If it's a submission finisher, I'll priority it from a specific limb targeted move, or a big move. In Frigyd Wintyrs case, I use the Double Underhook slam priority chained directly to the Cattle Mutilation. That is her finishing sequence which gets her the win most often.
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Old Baby
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Old Baby » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:04 pm

This is great. I love reading different theories on how to build an edit. Would be fascinating to have a panel with like five of the most prolific and respected edit creators to discuss/debate different aspects of edit creation one menu at a time.
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Wonderland
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Wonderland » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:49 pm

Just comes down to what you want to see happen, which is based on what you consider "good" or "appropriate". The way you make the edit reflects an attempt to get that to happen.

I like slower early pacing, not getting to heavy damage very quickly, reserving big moves for big moments, with as little repetition as possible, which gives me more of a sense of impact and decisiveness. And what constitutes "early" is relative. If you want your average match to be 10 minutes, that's going to be a different pacing than if you want it to be 15. Or 20.

The thing that all of edit making comes down to is whether your edit is doing what you want it to do. What you want is up to each individual. Getting it do that can be achieved through certain things, depending on what "that" is. ControlDawnFrenzyBreaker has his preferences and a very clear vision of how he wants his edits to perform, and why, and has crafted his edits to meet those needs. That's exactly what we're all trying to do.

Hence the way I laid out the categories in OP as "if you want this to happen, you can make it happen by doing this". It naturally follows that if you don't want that, then you can try something else. It's all about understanding what actions cause what effects, and adjusting them to your desired effects. Once you understand the principles at play, you can manipulate them to meet your desires.

Edit making is some of the most fun I've had with a video game ever, which is no surprise then that it's held my interest for as long as it has. The infinite variety of tastes and the multitude of ways to satisfy them is the core of creating edits. And when you have a clear vision of what you want to see, and can craft an edit who performs to those standards on a more-or-less consistent basis, you have achieved FireProBliss.

(And btw, do notice how it's all about what you want to see, and not about satisfying others' visions and what they think is good or should happen. Your preferences are your own. All anyone should ever try to do is help you make them a reality and not tell you to change them to meet their own. Of course discussion and debate about the merits of one versus the other can be good and productive and lead to evolution and change in how you see things, same as life in general. So long as it's backed up by reasoning and isn't just a prescriptive "should".)
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Will » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:53 pm

Hopefully someone will find this useful. This is solely to do with appearances, and not logic/parameters. Also all personal opinions and like logic, appearances are meant to be experimented with.

SKIN TONES:Skin tone 1 is great for unconventional edits who are often not human—go nuts with the oranges, greens, reds, whatever. Skin tone 2 is good and solid for white people—like, standard-ass American white people, most white Europeans, really pasty white people, etc. You can get away with skin tone 1 for, say, a Sheamus, but it's hard to nail down the colour.

Like warm and cold colours I'll get to in a sec, skin tones are warm and cold too. Skin tone 1, again, is kinda unconventional, while two to four seem to go from warmest to coolest—it's about how the "palette" so to speak, absorbs light. Two is the warmest, whilst three is somewhere in-between the extremes, and four is the coolest. There is variation in them, and variation in skin tones, so don't be afraid to experiment. And just because someone is black or white doesn't necessarily mean their shade of black or white looks the same as other people. Again, experiment to give your edits some variation, especially when it comes to non-white wrestlers.

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Keep this in mind and experiment. Not all shades of white and black and everything in between are the same. Consider your wrestler's nationality/heritage, or even their gimmick/who they work for/the time period they worked in. Take, Hulk Hogan and John Cena for example. Hogan's white, but he was TANNED AF. Tans were the thing of Hogan's time. Though logic dictates he could use skin tone 2, that tan says skin tone 3—or a very "orange" hue in skin tone 2 to me. Cena's a lot more reflective of the times—not tanned af. Just a normal-ass white dude skintone.

Skin tone 3, it seems, is generally agreed upon as a good basis for most Asian wrestlers. I've found this is a great skintone for Mexican, Latino, Middle Eastern, and Native wrestlers as well. It can also work for tanned wrestlers. A Hogan, for example. I have a male stripper wrestler who is white as fuck, but because his whole thing is that he's a male stripper who uses tanning machines, I use skin tone 3 for him—I act as though his skin isn't white. I've tried to experiment with more "Olive-toned" wrestlers here as well, but don't know if I'm sold on it yet. I'd probably lean towards tone 2 for more "Olive-skinned" wrestlers.

And finally, skin tone 4 is the skin tone to use for black wrestlers.

I personally find that when I'm creating a white person I tend towards pink/red tones as a base, then with Asians, it is a mixture of brown/yellow, leaning more towards yellow. With Latin people it's more orange-ish, for the most part, and black people, it's brownish-orange, leaning more towards brown. Again, there's variation in everything, and I try to pay close attention to heritage and gimmick affecting skin colour. For example, an Italian-American is going to be a different shade of white than an Irishman. When I said I use more orange-ish tones for Latin people, that's a bit of an oversimplification. For example, a lot of people may "present" white, and there's a lot of variation in that skintone. So don't be afraid to play around. For skin tones, it's only a few ticks in one direction is often more than enough to produce drastic results.

For all skin tones, I find that it helps to picture a real wrestler or person as a basis, have a picture up of them as I'm creating a wrestler, and just keep experimenting with the shade until I'm happy. Generally speaking, I also just leave highlighting on "H1." "H2" might be good if you're really going for an oiled-up dude/dudette. If you're going for a completely unconventional skintone, like, say, an alien, then go wild with highlighting.

Also, very small thing, but something I've totally done before. If you're using another wrestler as a base for a new wrestler, MAKE SURE that you're adjusting skintones if they're a different skintone. I can't tell you how many times I've forgot to do that, then discovered after I made someone that, say, everything is skintone 3, but I was a dumbass and left their thighs as skintone 4.

BALD CAPS: omfg use bald caps, especially for masked wrestlers. If you've got the layers, use a bald cap, because from some angles you'll see little holes and it will be a weird little niggling thing that will absolutely infuriate you.

BLACK AND WHITE : don't use 0, 0, 0 and 255, 255, 255 unless you absolutely 100% are deliberately doing it. Especially for black. Get some grey up in that bitch so we can see some shading, unless you're trying to make it DARKER THAN THE CENTRE OF A BLACK HOLE black.

And white: instill a little bit of grey/shade from whatever colour you're complimenting the white with to just give things some pop/realism. It'll help balance things. Again, you just want some shading to everything.

In printing (something I am very, very familiar with), there's a common practice when it comes to black: DO NOT USE 100% BLACK. Your black ends up printing out like a very muted, faded grey. And that doesn't exactly happen in Fire Pro if you use 0, 0, 0 black. But the same kind of effect happens. You don't get a deep, rich black so much as you get "an absence of light." So, in printing, you generally throw some cyan up in that bitch, and you produce a much deeper, and ultimately darker black. You won't produce a darker black in Fire Pro than 0, 0, 0 with, say, 15, 15, 15, but you'll produce a much more natural and rich-looking shade of black that picks up shading.

Colours in general: the advice about black and white applies to colours, too. Don't go to the absolute max of a colour unless you absolutely are doing it for a very certain effect. Get some shading in there, dawg. Even just moving a little bit towards white/black will help immensely.

Here's the colour spectrum. Remember it.

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More than just contrasting colours on the colour spectrum, experiment with the "temperature" of certain colours. Say, for example, you have a very bright shade of red and you want to use a similarly warm colour like pink. Maybe don't use a very bright shade of pink because the colours might bleed together. That said, if two colours are on very opposite ends of the spectrum—yellow and blue, say, you can be a bit more liberal about using a deep blue and a deep yellow if that's the effect you're going for. And never shy away from using the same colour as long as you're experimenting with shading within that colour. For example, a dark, almost-black shade of purple and lilac purple is one of my favourite colour schemes. And a deep, "royal" blue and baby blue? *chef kissing sounds* Amazing.

WARM AND DARK COLOURS: don't be afraid to break the mould, but just as a basic guide, if you're stuck on making an edit's appearance pop, adhere to the guiding principle of WARM AND DARK COLOURS. And at least at first, make the contrast as obvious as possible. Dark purple and, say, a vibrant, popping yellow. Black and virtually anything.

Or, a more subtle example: Chris Jericho's more recent run.

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Purple and blue, at first glance, shouldn't work. Purple is just a shade of blue, after all. But Jericho uses a lighter, vibrant shade of blue. The material of the blue is also shiny/sparkly, whilst the material of the purple is a more "natural" shade, which helps the blue to stand out. Don't be afraid to experiment with the highlighting in the game to get this kind of effect. Say, for example, you could use "N" or "H1" on the your base trunks, with a "H2" or "H3" or even "H4" on your "accent" colour/design to get the desired effect. I personally find H2 to be the sweet spot for "normal" sparkly designs, whilst H3 or H4 are a very deliberate effect and depending on your colour, can wash it out. H4 can look very washed out, which is fine, but adjust your colour if you need to. The use of black in this design is interesting, too. It helps "ground" the blue and makes it feel like it isn't just floating there on the tights.

Also, I find "H3" a good sweet spot for a kind of "vinyl/leather" effect on black pants. You can go a bit darker on your shade of black than you normally would because of this.

The fallback for me when it comes to designs, personally, is black with a virtually any colour—but if you're using, say, a more "cool" colour like purple or blue, and you still want them to pop, just use a lighter shade—a nice baby blue, or kind of lilac purple, say. Or, again, use the highlighting. White can look really good as a base colour too, but be sure your white has some depth to it rather than just "OMG THIS IS BLINDING" white.

Orrrrrr be crazy and use a darker shade if you want. Just do it deliberately, for a very specific effect, rather than losing the colour.

Also, don't be afraid to use a "warm" colour as a base for your trunks/tights/etc. Just, again, make sure, your contrast is evident.

Say, CJ Fresh's alternate attire:

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Pink isn't exactly the most "warm" colour like a burnt orange or a red, but it isn't a cool colour either. I utilized a deeper purple to give the attire some contrast. More importantly, though, I gave the shade of pink more of a "pastel" vibe to contrast the purple. Look at, say, his other alternate attire here:

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This pink is very vibrant, very "popping." But if I this shade of punk in his other attire, it the purple would get lost because both the pink and purple would be too vibrant and bright. Meanwhile, on this attire, even though the pink and green are both very vibrant, they're on such different ends of the colour spectrum that it works.

Also, for that first alternate attire with the "pastel" pink base, I played around with highlighting, too, which helps contrast the purple and pink.

What else? Let's take another look at Jericho and why something that shouldn't work on paper ends up looking pretty rad.

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What I call his "Rainmaker" attire because Okada has a very similar approach with his attire. The purple and red in this attire are very similar—how do I describe it? They're very "basic", very... just clean shades of purple and red. But they end up working because there's enough variation in the design, and the shiny "gold" and black helps break up everything enough to make it work. It's not as "clean" as say the purple/blue attire, or various other attires he's worn, but I like it. Even just in real life, as you can see, the black isn't, say, "0, 0, 0" black. And the gold on the sides helps break up the red and purple, where as black on the sides would have been overkill. If you're going to use colours that may blend together, use some designs to break things up. And don't be afraid to throw in a third or even fourth "base" shade to help ground things—generally I'd lean towards a shade rather than a colour, so I'd use black, grey, or white, if the main focus of your attire is a colour.

Using Jericho, again, you can see how he uses black and white to anchor everything so the gold doesn't get lost in the red. The black and red are not only design flairs to give the gold a "canvas" to rest on so to speak, but they're used as accents throughout to break up the monotony of red and just act as really good "trim" for everything.

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Also, subtle thing, but if you want to give your blacks and whites "texture", don't be afraid to throw in a very dark grey or slightly lighter/darker shade of white and use the camo, spots, or stripes designs. You can even use the same shade as your base colour if you'd like, and play around with highlighting.

Cool? I hope so.
Last edited by Will on Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Wonderland
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Wonderland » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:09 am

That is some legit knowledge right there which is not only good for firepro, it's good for life. And it's no wonder your edits look so good. Thanks for sharing, Will!
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Love Wilcox
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Love Wilcox » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:06 am

TIL Chris Jericho is the man for cool ring gear.
My original edits: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1140

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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby Reckless101 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:16 pm

craziej2k wrote:Reckless, would it be possible for you to post a screenshot of your front grapple logic for one of your edits? The numbers shown in the images you posted are soooooooooo different from mine I'd love to see how you spread your %'s out


Sure thing!

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This is Mark Spirals' current front grapple set up. As you can see, it's VERY straightforward and simplistic. While I'm considering having variations of this setup to reflect regional wrestling styles between my edits (like "American Style" and "Japanese Strong Strong"), All of my edits follow a formulaic layout across the entire logic section. The reason for this is three-fold. The first reason being is that I'm VERY meticulous about numbers and such in games. This comes from my love of tactical RPGs where a lot of micromanaging is involved. So that pretty much seeped its way into Fire Pro and my edit making. I would become so obsessed with the numbers and percentages of Fire Pro that I won't feel any of my edits are satisfactory and it'll keep me from moving onto new ones. So this "one size fits all" approach helps ease that anxiety. The second reason is, to put it simply, I don't really care how often an edit performs one of their lesser moves. While we do want each selection of an edit's moveset to having a purpose/reason for being there, it all leads to one of their treasured and more valued finishing spots. So as long as Mark isn't doing his Styles Clash or Spinning Brainbuster 3min into a match then I don't mind him doing anything else. And lastly, since I used Mark like this in Returns for many projects/feds on here and received nothing but positive feedback I figured by building all my edits using his schematic would mean that people will have equally good matches with my entire roster.

As a 4th note, there are some nuances between my edits that make them stand out much more as a result. For example, as of right now, only my Bridget Cromwell and Kurrupt edits have special skills being Blood and Start Dash respectively. Since those two edits would otherwise wrestle the same and therefore have a (theoretically) 50/50 chance at beating any of my other edits, giving them a special skill will lean the advantage in their favor in certain situations with Bridget's advantage coming into play if she bleeds and Kurrupt's coming into play at the start of the match.

I know my methods won't mesh with everyone else's, but this is the approach I've chosen since Returns and I've been having a blast. I also find it helps me pinpoint any issues or inconsistencies that a particular edit may have. That being said, I'm always experimenting with how I can make my edits perform even better to make sure that they not only put out fun matches for myself but for everyone else that wishes to use them.

orochigeese wrote:I'd wake up to Goosemas morning (with extra egg nog :goose: ) if one day Reckless wrote a complete guide that combined his edit-making mastery with his character/storytelling genius 8-)


Wonderland wrote:Also, holy shit an edit + character guide from Reckless would be a supreme burrito of excellence. I'm hungry...


:lol: That sounds like a fun idea! I'm always down to talk about characters and character development, even when they're not my own. I always find interaction through role-plays to be so engaging since it's all coming from the person's head rather than the game engine. If people are interested I'm down to write out a little primer for my approach to writing characters and even possibly double it as how you can use that to start your own fed.
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Re: Basic Edit-Making Tips and Tricks

Postby craziej2k » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:33 pm

Reckless101 wrote:[All of my edits follow a formulaic layout across the entire logic section. The reason for this is three-fold. The first reason being is that I'm VERY meticulous about numbers and such in games. This comes from my love of tactical RPGs where a lot of micromanaging is involved. So that pretty much seeped its way into Fire Pro and my edit making. I would become so obsessed with the numbers and percentages of Fire Pro that I won't feel any of my edits are satisfactory and it'll keep me from moving onto new ones.




OMG I thought I was the only one who did this! I've been experimenting with a more basic version as having random percentages drives me mad!


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