Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

For general discussion of Fire Pro Wrestling World topics and news.
User avatar
Jetlag
Community Member
Posts: 350
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:16 pm

Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Jetlag » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:10 am

So this is driving me nuts and I want to know if anyone else has experienced this.

Basically whenever I'm simming a really weak wrestler (as in low point total) vs. a much a stronger wrestler, the weak wrestler ends up winning most of the grapples, causing the match to go absurdly long. So I will sim a 50 point rookie vs. a 200 point behemoth and the rookie ends up dominating most of the match for 15-20 minutes before finally losing to a handful of moves from the big guy.

It's not that the weak wrestlers are kicking out of too many moves. That is fine, usually the vet beats them with just a few moves.

I know you sometimes have this due to RNG deciding who wins the grapples, but I swear wrestlers with low point total almost always win the majority of grapples when fighting a wrestler with high point total. I can't count how many +15 minute rookie vs. vet epics I've seen in the last couple weeks.

It's double absurd because these matches end up going longer than my veteran vs. veteran main events AND longer than my rookie vs. rookie matches Usually the main events go around 15 minutes or longer and the rookie matches go around 12 minutes or less.

Anyone else seeing this or am I just seeing things?

User avatar
Professor Voodoo
Mad Scientist Of Editing
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:52 pm

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Professor Voodoo » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:18 am

You're not the only one. I simmed Orange Slush (231 points) against some 60 point Russian jobber I downloaded to test Slush's front grapple finish logic. The matches went 15 minutes+, due to Slush absorbing tons of offense (He still won out in both sims) from the jobber. However Slush is kind of a carry artist, so he may not be the best example.

Enter the TNA Commander. A 353 point beast, with dumb spam happy logic. He managed to win decisively a few times, but was pushed to the limit against a 181 point Bray Wyatt edit, which he still won against. This post does have merit, and maybe it's a balancing factor?
It's not enough to look like an edit to be an edit. You have to act like them too.

Steam Workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/id/Professor_ ... pid=564230

Kristofferson
Community Member
Posts: 677
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 8:38 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Kristofferson » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:25 am

Hmm I've not noticed this specifically but other than Kristofferson the only other WRW edits I've done are Glutton Butcher who is a vicious monster and Boogaloo who is a comedy wrestler. Kristofferson sims fine but I'm having real trouble getting Glutton to come across as a beast and Boog to look fragile so maybe there is something in it.

User avatar
Zealot
Galastream Owner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:22 am
Location: Shadyside, OH
Contact:

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Zealot » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:38 am

You guys do realize parameters are not the be all end all of edit power, right?

Balance is key. Often times, the edit with the better logic will have the upper hand. That's kind of what the RNG is based off of.
Image
ImageImage ImageImage

User avatar
Jetlag
Community Member
Posts: 350
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Jetlag » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:43 am

AFAIK logic has nothing to do with winning grapples. Could you elaborate on that a little (e.g. give an example of what kind of logic will give a wrestler the upper hand)? I think my edits have pretty good balanced logic.

User avatar
Zealot
Galastream Owner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:22 am
Location: Shadyside, OH
Contact:

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Zealot » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:19 am

Well one of the first things I would check is Ukemi. The setting of that trait in the damage levels the edit is taking move could make a significant difference. Edits with low ukemi in small/medium damage levels are probably going to win most grapples. On the flipside, if a weak edit has high Ukemi allowing for potential to be hit by bigger moves in small/medium damage, it could set up a comeback scenario for the weaker edit as it will reach its spirit boost much quicker.

Again, this is part of a whole. There could be plenty of other factors which determine if an edit is outperforming another. Fight and return styles, move selection, move percentage logic, the other 4 major traits, parameters, etc. could and do factor in to an edit's performance.

There isn't really a perfect way of making an edit and it takes time to make them. I give credit to multiple edit makers like desertpunk, DJKM, and Senator, but not every edit they make will gel with the rest of their edits. It comes with quantity regardless of quality (which I know they have).

One of my favorite methods when working on an edit is running them through a makeshift gauntlet of about 10 edits I trust simming ranked from relatively weak to super hoss strong.

If my edit is within the range of power I want it to be at, I usually just leave it at that barring minor adjustments and let the RNG take the wheel.

As for the jobber logic, that is a battle many have tried to emulate in Fire Pro with mixed results. The most realistic way to pull it off is to have a monster edit crush a small-bodied and defensively weak edit. A recommendation I would make for jobber-ish edits is to give them a return style more suited for bigger edits like Power and Giant and keep their body size Small or Female so they can't benefit from the style and get gassed quicker. Really simulates poor conditioning for a rookie well.
Last edited by Zealot on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
ImageImage ImageImage

User avatar
Professor Voodoo
Mad Scientist Of Editing
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:52 pm

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Professor Voodoo » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:20 am

Zealot wrote:You guys do realize parameters are not the be all end all of edit power, right?

Balance is key. Often times, the edit with the better logic will have the upper hand. That's kind of what the RNG is based off of.


But let me repeat that the Commander is intentionally meant to be cheap, logic wise. And a Bray Wyatt with more "WWE" based logic nearly took him down.
It's not enough to look like an edit to be an edit. You have to act like them too.

Steam Workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/id/Professor_ ... pid=564230

User avatar
Zealot
Galastream Owner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:22 am
Location: Shadyside, OH
Contact:

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Zealot » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:27 am

If you want that edit to be really cheap (at least from what I've seen), I would keep his Flex low, Discretion High, Personal Traits High, low Ukemi, LOTS of strikes, and 10% or higher for large grapples for the ultimate BFMS. Give him the Panther style while you're at it. :D

Come to think of it, that almost sounds like orochigeese's first original edit in Fire Pro: Bolt.
Image
ImageImage ImageImage

User avatar
TheDenizen
Community Member
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:46 pm
Location: Canada eh?

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby TheDenizen » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:25 pm

Zealot wrote:If you want that edit to be really cheap (at least from what I've seen), I would keep his Flex low, Discretion High, Personal Traits High, low Ukemi, LOTS of strikes, and 10% or higher for large grapples for the ultimate BFMS. Give him the Panther style while you're at it. :D

Come to think of it, that almost sounds like orochigeese's first original edit in Fire Pro: Bolt.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
fullbug
Ohhhhh Yeahhhhh!
Posts: 1860
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:34 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada, Eh?
Contact:

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby fullbug » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:03 pm

As far as jobbers go, doesn't it help to set them so they attempt many big moves early in the match, causing many reversals? I recall setting my jobbers up that way when I first put them in returns....

User avatar
Old Baby
Flaming Bob's Dad
Posts: 1114
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Old Baby » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:08 pm

As Zealot said, parameters is not going to have much bearing on your match length if CPU logic is set to favor your rookie winning more grapples. By your description, it almost sounds like the ukemi on both edits is just not playing nicely together. It may be because you designed your more powerful edit to have good, competitive matches with wrestlers at his own level, but now you're expecting him to wrestle a different kind of match because the other edit is less powerful. Unfortunately, your stronger edit is not going to know that, so he's going to see your weaker edit as being his equal and sell for him.
Image

User avatar
DynamiteDM
Community Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:16 am

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby DynamiteDM » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:41 pm

Old Baby wrote:As Zealot said, parameters is not going to have much bearing on your match length if CPU logic is set to favor your rookie winning more grapples. By your description, it almost sounds like the ukemi on both edits is just not playing nicely together. It may be because you designed your more powerful edit to have good, competitive matches with wrestlers at his own level, but now you're expecting him to wrestle a different kind of match because the other edit is less powerful. Unfortunately, your stronger edit is not going to know that, so he's going to see your weaker edit as being his equal and sell for him.


Truth... Problem here doesnt lay in stats but logic settings of "monster" that has Uekmi set for back and forth matches with equal opponents, so tweak his uekmi to 0 on all damage levels if you want squashes.
Image

User avatar
Carlzilla
Community Member
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:34 pm

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Carlzilla » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:53 pm

Also remember, random is random (or as random as a computer can be). So you can get 3 or 4 straight matches where the jobber wins tons of grapples and then 2 where he gets squashed, then 2 more where he doesn't, all with the same logic settings.

Logic settings play their role, but if the dice aren't coming up in your favor, there's nothing you can really do.

dnichol89
Community Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:34 pm

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby dnichol89 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:10 pm

I've got a giant russian squash monster that I've set up to just destroy people quickly, with no regard to match quality.

Low flex, high discretion, low ukemi and lots of strikes. He's not went past the 9 minute mark in 5 test sims

User avatar
Fignuts
Community Member
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:51 am

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby Fignuts » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:44 pm

Not sure how hard it would be to implement, but maybe they could add a handicap meter like the old aki game which boosts or lowers the stats based on who you want to win.

A while back, someone on the steam forum suggested the ability to pick winners in sims which I thought was a great idea. Obviously the unpredictability is part of the fun of simming, but sometimes you want to build a feud or story a certain way, and theres no way to guarantee it currently.

User avatar
IamAres
Community Member
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:54 am

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby IamAres » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:25 am

Fignuts wrote:Not sure how hard it would be to implement, but maybe they could add a handicap meter like the old aki game which boosts or lowers the stats based on who you want to win.

A while back, someone on the steam forum suggested the ability to pick winners in sims which I thought was a great idea. Obviously the unpredictability is part of the fun of simming, but sometimes you want to build a feud or story a certain way, and theres no way to guarantee it currently.


What I would actually really love would be the ability to set each participant's difficulty separately, a la Super Smash Brothers. Would make it really easy to set up squashes, or just make one guy the clearest threat in multi-man matches. It's not QUITE deciding a winner beforehand, but it would be pretty close, depending on how much of a disparity you set up.
Also slightly there's something happy, so enjoy it!

jae
Community Member
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:52 am
Contact:

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby jae » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:11 pm

There's something weird going on, even in player controlled games.
Was doing a six man tag tonight on low difficulty, and won every grapple with 2/3 of my team, but when i tagged in the stongest member I lost every single one. Tag out and it's back to normal. This has happened to me quite a few times, from low difficulty up to high.
Image

User avatar
orochigeese
E-Fed Pimp
Posts: 2669
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:37 am
Location: Omega Road
Contact:

Re: Is the RNG giving an advantage to weaker wrestlers?

Postby orochigeese » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:24 am

I have been missing more information than I have been seeing it but as I understand things:

Absent any specific glitches, the only change from FPR to FPW related to grapple-winning is the fact that the "random number generator" is ACTIUALLY random in FPW rather than a pre-generated list of numbers (which is why "boot sims" were possible).

So all of the information regarding the mechanics for grapple winning that JB gave me to put in this guide for FPR a few years ago should still be accurate: except that now "random" is really random. The grapple winning and CPU logic system system should still be based on the same dynamics as FPR.

http://www.fpwarena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=60

Again, that's absent any FPW glitches or some kind of radical change to the engine not told to us that JB hasn't been made aware of yet.

Ukemi doesn't affect the initial winning of a grapple. Grapple winning is not affected by special skills, fight style, personality, discretion, or flexibility either.

It's COM Level plus the RNG (again, read the guide for the actual JB description) - and the switch to actual randomness doesn't change the core mechanics. Sometimes edits just win a ton of grapples in a row as a result of that. Happened to me all the time in FPR.

Not every Fire Pro sim (FPR or FPW) is gonna be great or worth watching til the end, even with the best edits. The game's reliance on random numbers can wreak utter havoc or produce the equivalent of 1000 Gooses writing Shakespeare for 1000 years.

Points and cpu logic (moves and personality logic) can create a squash on their own but can't really do much to prevent a one-sided match (due to grapple winning) from being bad. The best you can do on your end is anticipate a one-sided match and use logic/points to prolong the agony but, in doing so, you probably will destroy the potential of excellent matches happening with more even/balanced grapple winning. (Whether move for move or net result equal momentum runs for each side)

Short story: exit match after 5-6 minutes of one side winning grapples or pray for Hulk Hogan to possess the opposing edit.
Image
Image


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests