How do you guys test your edits?

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heelsinc
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby heelsinc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:34 pm

soak314 wrote:
heelsinc wrote:There's so much back and forth in my head. I just started reducing defensive stats only this way they will still have the same offense but will the lower D they should get into higher damage faster and can still get their asses kicked by guys like Sabu.....down the rabbit hole I go.


Here's another trick for engineering lower card edits: give them no ukemi. As in, 0/0/0.

This deprives them of all ukemi boost related mechanics, giving them far less kickouts and making them far more susceptible to endgame submissions.

Paired with lower defenses, this typically ensures an edit successfully jobs at an awesome rate, while putting on quick and decisive matches against fellow edits designed with the same framework.



Wont this lead to lots of reversals?

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TigerSword
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby TigerSword » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:54 pm

heelsinc wrote:
Bananeninja wrote:
And for big moves i usually put around 5-9% for the regular ones and 4-7% for the finisher, maybe a little less if it's a rare finisher


I think I might be a little higher then this. I would rather a guy win with his finisher then a different move so I put it up a little more. It is frustrating that guys kick out of finishers. I know in Japan finishers aren't as big a deal as in the US but I want Jake the Snake to win with his DDT the first time he does it not the third. I might start throwing the Finish special skill on my edits and seeing what this does in terms of match length and rating.

You're having the opposite effect of what you're looking for. By putting the finishers higher, you're making them come out earlier and more often, which is what you're trying to avoid. Lower the finisher percentage, and if you're worried about moves ending matches, make sure that only priorities can end matches. If you're looking to emulate the American finisher = over style of match, then go ahead and put One Hit Finish on all your edits, it's the default skill for just about all my edits, because I also like to see matches end when the finisher comes out, with exceptions for big main event style matches, but usually the guys competing in those matches have different skills and multiple ways to finish.
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heelsinc
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby heelsinc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:34 pm

TigerSword wrote:
heelsinc wrote:
Bananeninja wrote:
And for big moves i usually put around 5-9% for the regular ones and 4-7% for the finisher, maybe a little less if it's a rare finisher


I think I might be a little higher then this. I would rather a guy win with his finisher then a different move so I put it up a little more. It is frustrating that guys kick out of finishers. I know in Japan finishers aren't as big a deal as in the US but I want Jake the Snake to win with his DDT the first time he does it not the third. I might start throwing the Finish special skill on my edits and seeing what this does in terms of match length and rating.

You're having the opposite effect of what you're looking for. By putting the finishers higher, you're making them come out earlier and more often, which is what you're trying to avoid. Lower the finisher percentage, and if you're worried about moves ending matches, make sure that only priorities can end matches. If you're looking to emulate the American finisher = over style of match, then go ahead and put One Hit Finish on all your edits, it's the default skill for just about all my edits, because I also like to see matches end when the finisher comes out, with exceptions for big main event style matches, but usually the guys competing in those matches have different skills and multiple ways to finish.


So your point that I put in bold doesn't necessarily add up. I'm not making them come out earlier as I only put them in the large damage category so they are only coming out in that section. More often then I want? Yes for sure. If it's a front grapple finisher I set it to about 7% most of the time and will end up seeing it about 3 times a match before it finishes. My concern with lowering it is that the finisher will never come out. I'm trying to accomplish 2 things here. Lower match time for certain edits and have finishers end matches. I feel like lowering the finisher might accomplish the second part as other moves will come out and damage the opponent but could also increase match time as it MAY take longer to see the finisher even appear. Priority wise I'm set that's the easy part.

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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby dochappy » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:11 pm

I hope its ok to post this here but I struggle with skills and parameters with my edits I 'm having a hard time finding the sweet spot. They either become over powered or too weak.

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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby AndreTheShadow » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:16 pm

I try to test my guys against the people they're supposed to wrestle. Most of my edits are very era-based, so it's important they perform against the other people from their era. I also try to stick to specific parameter ranges depending on eras, especially since certain high-powered moves aren't a factor in "old-school" style matches.

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IamAres
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby IamAres » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:45 pm

heelsinc wrote:So your point that I put in bold doesn't necessarily add up. I'm not making them come out earlier as I only put them in the large damage category so they are only coming out in that section.


It probably would have been more accurate to say that you're more LIKELY to see them too early if you have the percentage higher. "Large Damage" actually covers a LOT of ground, it starts more or less when the guy is worn down enough to start taking big moves, but not necessarily get beat by them. If you see a finish close to the beginning of that section, it's going to get kicked out of. By making a finisher come out LESS often, you're increasing the likelihood that he WILL be damaged enough to get beat when it DOES come out.

And yes, you are correct that setting it too low can cause the guy to pussyfoot around and not hit it when you really need him to. It's a bit of a balancing act to get a guy to (semi-) consistently win with one finisher. The one-hit finisher skill does help, and I'd recommend it for most guys who have really strong/protected finishers (IE a lot of your old-school American guys,) but it's not magic either.

At the end of the day, there is no fool-proof solution for getting the exact result you want, every time. But, when everything is set up right, you will GENERALLY get the results you should get...you just might get the occasional surprise (good or bad.)
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heelsinc
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby heelsinc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:56 pm

@IamAres you make some great points and I understand where you guys are coming from I think I'm still just undecided on which direction I want to go.

I think I will try to switch things up and just add the one hit finished first with out changing up the logic and see how that works.

What's everyone else using for front grapple finisher percentage wise?

I've kinda straightened things out with a bit more testing last night. I made 3 refs one that is maxed on movement speed and count he's my opening match ref. Matches were lasting about 12 minutes for evenly matched edits and about 8 or 9 on uneven guys and scoring in the mid-high 80s the main event ref slows things down and runs about 18-35 minutes depending on stats. Those matches were scoring 95 and up with TONS of 99 and 100s. So I'm honestly fairly happy with where I'm at. Like I said I would just love to shave off a few minutes from the matches with the opening ref but not sure if it's worth messing around with logic again and possibly losing those 100s when I use the main event ref. With out the kick outs and 2.9s I probably won't get the 100s so the 1 hit finisher could mess that up.

ARRRGH this game is almost to deep to where it never ends I always feel like I learn something new all the time and want to implement the changes.
Last edited by heelsinc on Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Carlzilla
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby Carlzilla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:59 pm

4-7% is what I use.

I also adjusted the high damage range...so it acts more like Near Death.

heelsinc
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby heelsinc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:02 pm

Carlzilla wrote:4-7% is what I use.

I also adjusted the high damage range...so it acts more like Near Death.


Yea I'm really beginning to jump on the near death logic bandwagon. I guess I gotta just mod which I keep saying but am over whelmed by it. What makes it near death? Is there still a chance of kicking out at that point?

I still can't decide which I want to attack guys that I want to go 7 minutes going 12 or them hitting finisher more then once. I'm hoping the one hit finish attribute might cut down on the time and in turn mean the finish only comes out once or twice instead of 3 or 4 time.

I think next topic of discussion for me is how you guys approach top rope finishers. This is a major problem for me as I can't decide if I only want it done of a priority or also have a percentage in the down near corner category. I have a guy with a top rope leg drop for a finish and I see it literally like 10 times a match.
Last edited by heelsinc on Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Carlzilla
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby Carlzilla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:06 pm

I use the custom damage scale mod to have "Large Damage" start at 18% remaining health instead of 35. There's still a small chance for them to kick out of bigger moves, but a pinning finisher usually ends the match at that point.

heelsinc
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby heelsinc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:08 pm

Oh wow I never knew about the percentages 35% is a big amount of space to call large damage. I like this idea as it will likely keep the matches around the same time but increase the chances of a one hit finish. With out having to change logic. Then I can go after getting match time down a bit all on it's own with out having to worry about my finisher problem.

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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby TigerSword » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:23 pm

IamAres wrote:
heelsinc wrote:So your point that I put in bold doesn't necessarily add up. I'm not making them come out earlier as I only put them in the large damage category so they are only coming out in that section.


It probably would have been more accurate to say that you're more LIKELY to see them too early if you have the percentage higher. "Large Damage" actually covers a LOT of ground, it starts more or less when the guy is worn down enough to start taking big moves, but not necessarily get beat by them. If you see a finish close to the beginning of that section, it's going to get kicked out of. By making a finisher come out LESS often, you're increasing the likelihood that he WILL be damaged enough to get beat when it DOES come out.

And yes, you are correct that setting it too low can cause the guy to pussyfoot around and not hit it when you really need him to. It's a bit of a balancing act to get a guy to (semi-) consistently win with one finisher. The one-hit finisher skill does help, and I'd recommend it for most guys who have really strong/protected finishers (IE a lot of your old-school American guys,) but it's not magic either.

At the end of the day, there is no fool-proof solution for getting the exact result you want, every time. But, when everything is set up right, you will GENERALLY get the results you should get...you just might get the occasional surprise (good or bad.)

Yeah, it helps to remember how the RNG operates, while we put percentages in the logic section, it's really like a roulette wheel, where each slot is 1 point, so the more points a move has, the more likely it will come up in the RNG spin, which is why you can see a 5% finisher come out once 30 minutes into a match, or that same 5% finisher come out 7 times starting 10 minutes in. It's always a trend to look for, not a specific incident.
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soak314
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby soak314 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:26 pm

heelsinc wrote:Wont this lead to lots of reversals?


Not as often as you'd think. Not having access to an ukemi boost is a much bigger blow to an edit's survivability than eating more moves.

0/0/0's also a great spread for making sure your finishes end the match in one hit. With a fast ref, 3 count conditions on a pinfall can be met as early as <20% spirit. That's anywhere from 1-5 less pin attempts depending on the moves used.

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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby heelsinc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:35 pm

soak314 wrote:
heelsinc wrote:Wont this lead to lots of reversals?


Not as often as you'd think. Not having access to an ukemi boost is a much bigger blow to an edit's survivability than eating more moves.

0/0/0's also a great spread for making sure your finishes end the match in one hit. With a fast ref, 3 count conditions on a pinfall can be met as early as <20% spirit. That's anywhere from 1-5 less pin attempts depending on the moves used.


Thank you to everyone who has stopped by with some advice! I think my first steps are to add one hit finisher to most if not all my edits and then to reduce ukemi on those guys that I want in opening matches. I'll see where that takes things and report back tonight!

Moving on to my other question which may have been missed in all the discussion. Top rope finishers...What kind of percentages do you have for near corner when a finisher is a top rope move? Does it make more sense to only link a top rope finish to another move through priorities? If yes what kind of percentage do you give that move and then what do you set the priority percentage to? Take Snuka for example superfly splash near corner down do you put something there or do you just link it to the Schmidt back breaker which is what he would do in real life. What percentage would I put the back breaker at and do I 100% like the splash to it?

Thoughts?

Edit: Also I hate that there is no real guide or instruction on what the game is looking for when it scores you!!!

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Professor Voodoo
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby Professor Voodoo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:00 pm

If you're looking to chain a move into a dive, in this case backbreaker>splash, I'd 100% the dive prio unless you wanna add variety to the AI and maybe have them do something else. As for what number to put the backbreaker at, that's up to you.

As far as scoring, there's multiple evals.

Not 100% sure myself, most of this is from watching sim upon sim.

Showman (Big Garden, SCS, I think the Dojo now): Do dynamic and exciting things, big moves, taunts, the like
Highroad (Yorakuen): Epic back and forths, big moves, does not like squashes.
Strong Style (Spike Dome): Similar to Highroad, but emphasizes strikes and subs (I think) a bit more.
Lucha (Arena De Universo): The most lenient of the scores, mostly just put on a solid match.
Deathmatch (Big Garden Barbed Wire/Landmine): Blood, weapons, roughhousing, rinse and repeat
Stoic (Dodecagon, I think SWA and S1?): MMA style.
Free: I have no idea.
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soak314
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby soak314 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:02 pm

Top rope prios are fairly new, but here's a couple points I've picked up off using them.

IN GENERAL

> Percentage on the initiating move in a dive sequence will depend on the range of the dive. For shorter range dives (ie the brain chop) it might be best to set the prio to one or two filler moves at a fairly high % each. If you MUST have a pair of moves in a sequence, working off a long range dive, (ie mutasault) would be best since the dive then becomes limited almost entirely by when the setup move happens.

> Don't discount the natural, non priod dive percentages even if there is a greater degree of control with a prio setup. Sometimes, especially for standing dives, it can be much easier to forgo a priority and just have the edit take the dive shot whenever they create the opportunity.

STANDING DIVES

> Standing Dive moves will only reliably work off setup moves set to the BIG buttons (moves that leave in dazed state). If the move leaves the edit performing it standing, even better. This has always been the case, but now even moreso with the prio forcing the edit to ascend even if they would just step back down because they can't hit the move.

> Standing Dive moves off prio setups can no longer seem to get on-the-top-rope taunts. Not sure if this case is universal, or dependent on the setup > finish combo, but SOAK never pats his butt prior to the Butt Spot if the setup move used was the prio from tsuppari.

> If you're going for a natural percentage standing dive, it's best to set it at 100% at Critical when testing. That way you see exactly what moves it likes to follow up on, and you get a solid feel for what the range is on that particular edit. Once you see it happen a bunch of times at 100%, it'll be pretty easy to gutfeel a percent you're happier with.

DOWNED DIVES

> These are a bit easier to setup with prio, but still work best off SML and MED and SML+MED slotted moves. Certain corner grapples are also really good to setup downed dives with.

> Same case with standing dives for natural percentage testing: set to 100% and eyeball when the edit decides to go to town. for some edits, it's actually ideal to leave this percentage at the flat 100, just because some moveset + fight style combinations make tiny windows for dive spots.

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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby heelsinc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:07 pm

So to give another example Tony Stetson has a top rope leg drop as his finish. I've got it at like 40% near death damage and I see it 6 or so times a match. That's why I'm thinking to link it to a move that I have at like 5% in large damage. Priority it at 90-100% since it will also be determined by if the opponent is close enough to the corner after the move it's linked to for him to even go up top.

What type of percentage do you guys put in for just down near corner if its a top rope finish and are NOT linking it in priority?

heelsinc
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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby heelsinc » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:29 am

Just wanted to come again and say thank you to everyone who helped me out and gave me ideas. I was able to go home tonight and mess around with the logic for my Jimmy Snuka ECW 92-94. Changed up his logic so that he will only go for the superfly splash after the back breaker and then set the back breaker to like 4% and turned on one hit finisher. Threw the slow count ref into it and got a match that lasted 13.37 got a 98% and most importantly ended after the first back breaker to splash combo!

It was the exact finish I wanted and the time the match ran fits perfectly into a TV main event on ECW TV from the time frame.

I re-ran the match a few times all getting nice scores but Snuka's second victory was even better. 2.9 after a backbreaker splash combo at the 11 minute mark and once more at 16.37 for the win and a 100%

Fast count ref got me an 8 minute match with Snuka getting the win after the first splash and an 88% which would be good to me for an opening match

This is exactly what I want if a finisher gets kicked out of I want it late in the match and the second time it hits it better get the win. I know this is not how things will turn out every time but it's playing way better than last night AND still getting great scores.

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Re: How do you guys test your edits?

Postby fullMETAL » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:42 pm

To test my custom characters, I put them up against the following people:
- singles matches against Geese, Wonderland, Ceese (cheap plug for my port!), K, Jason Blackhart, and Elwood Allen
- tag matches against Heavy Devy & Z-Train (Ribbons & 'Bows), WackyDeli, Excess Express (Chuck Madrox & Jester Jay, another cheap plug for my port!), and Masters of Expert (Remmy & Joey FNK)

The length of time it takes for my wrestlers to win/lose those matches (along with how early and often they pull out their Big Fucking Moves) determines whether my people still need to be worked on, or if they're at least okay to put up for a 1st-draft version on the Workshop.

These particular opponents/teams are picked in my testing because those have actually been some of the most well-rounded/cohesive edits/teams in previous testing sessions on Returns, with the ability to perform consistently enough against my test subjects to determine if my test subject is considered "finished" or not.

For instance, one of my "main eventer" edits is Axl Evermore, and in Returns I put him up against Wonderland (because Wondy's sort of a heel analogue to Axl, moves-wise, with an interesting contrast match-wise) to see whether Axl can actually work FPCPP main-event-friendly style or not, and after winning the first match in my previously-recorded-but-lost match and losing the 2nd on I think it was one of Wondy's Dojo streams, I even decided to turn it into an angle so that their 3rd match will take place very soon.
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