General Wrasslin' Discussion

Yo_Charlie
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Yo_Charlie » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:39 pm

This might be the stupidest spot I've ever seen in wrestling.

https://www.twitter.com/IMPACTWRESTLING ... 6983769088

Sami Callihan tried to kayfabe it on Twitter for views but it makes everybody involved look bad. I'm surprised that Impact decided to air it.

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Severla 2.0
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Severla 2.0 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:37 am

Yeah it was pretty dumb.

Although I do laugh that it's just exploded because IMPACT aired it a few days ago, but it got heavily ignored back in January during the tapings even when fans at the taping were posting 'wow that was some dumb shit' but half the internet just hand waived it.

I guess the twitter talk is making it worse.

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby DM_PSX » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:40 am

They might as well make the most of it. It's the only thing they've done in years worth any attention, other than one of their champions getting beat up in Mexico.

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby El Marsh » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:50 am

Ah, I was very confused about that being recent since Lashley has been in rumors for a WWE return for a while.
But yes, that was pretty retarded.
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby fullMETAL » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:03 pm

The rumored design for the Cruiserweight Tag belts:
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Plus it'll be 3 layers:
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby chango » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:24 pm

So Scott Hall has recently said on twitter that Lex Luger and British Bulldog were both failed singles wrestlers. Now I do agree with him on Lex Luger but not Bulldog which got me thinking.

Im English, so to me Bulldogs singles run was always seen as a pretty big deal in WWF .... is that so in the States? Or his he looked on similarly as say ... D’lo Brown or Val Venis ... ie good at the time but not a legend...

Dunno what im really trying to say...i was just curious!

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby TigerSword » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:40 pm

I don't think either of them are failed singles wrestlers. They are both legends of the business.
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby El Marsh » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:01 pm

Yeah. I'd be curious to see what Hall means by "failure." Luger carried the big gold belt several times and while I don't think he was as great of a champion as Sting, Goldberg, DDP, etc., he still rates well in retrospect because of his legendary look and his SICK submission finisher. Could he have done better under different circumstances? Sure. However, I think he did just fine all things considered. His WWF career left something to be desired but he was still a star there.

As for Davey Boy, he's consistently considered one of the best wrestlers never to hold a major title. He had a hell of a look, surprising versatility for a walking lump of muscle, and he knew how to work the crowd. He's probably better remembered for his long WWF career that saw him hold every tag and secondary title available. Oddly enough, while he was part of great team that ultimately gave him his ring name, I think his involvement in the Hart Foundation faction is "probably" better known to most fans since it happened right at the start of "that" era. As far as potential, I think Davey Boy definitely deserved a major title run in WWF but he still had a pretty good run in the company without, even accounting for the horrible gimmick matches he had towards the end of it (Kennel From Hell......*shudder*)

Again, I'm not sure what Hall was judging success and failure on but I'm of the opinion that if you were a wrestler in a major promotion and were constantly involved in a title chase that got attention (remember when secondary titles actually meant something in WWE, like when Luger and Bulldog were there?) while being generally remembered as a positive contribution to the product by fans then yes, you had a good run of it. I think Luger (WCW) and Bulldog (WWF) both qualify.
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby TigerSword » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:15 pm

Man, if World Titles are the decider between legend and failure, what a horrible failure Roddy Piper was, eh? :sarcasm:
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Kristofferson » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:16 pm

TigerSword wrote:Man, if World Titles are the decider between legend and failure, what a horrible failure Roddy Piper was, eh? :sarcasm:


As would Scott Hall be in his WWE run as Razor Ramon.

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby SpiderFab4 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:53 am

And Mr. Perfect is the ultimate grey area (he WAS World Champ... in AWA!)
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby JDP » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:10 am

chango wrote:Im English, so to me Bulldogs singles run was always seen as a pretty big deal in WWF .... is that so in the States? Or his he looked on similarly as say ... D’lo Brown or Val Venis ... ie good at the time but not a legend...


While you could argue Davey Boy Smith as a singles guy didn't really go very far, I think most would consider his team with Dynamite Kid to be one of wrestling's legendary tag teams.

So in that, I don't think anybody would really consider him to be a failure as a wrestler.

Between his team with Dynamite, and his team with Owen Hart I'd assume his Hall of Fame spot should be pretty much guaranteed at some point or another.

As for Lex Luger? Eh. A body at best, but one that won WCW World Championship gold. So I mean you can't really consider him to be a failure either, even if you think he's the ass in the ring.
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby bcthomas » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:55 am

Smith main-evented one of the biggest PPV's of all-time. His HOF status is sealed.

Lex Luger is criminally underrated. Specifically late '80s, early '90s Luger. He was excellent. He knew his spots and hit them with fervor. I don't need Luger to know Malenko like holds. I need him to beat up the bad guy, win a test of strength, do a military press, get suckered into a mistake, get beat up, come back with some clotheslines, a powerslam, and the rack. No more, no less.

His heel work with Harley Race as his manager against Sting and Ron Simmons was fantastic.

He gets a bad rap now, but Luger could go.

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby orochigeese » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:16 am

I don't have any real context for Hall's comments. I wonder if Hall meant that they "failed to live up to their potential" or if they just had bad careers. I certainly don't think either of them could have been said to have bad careers but there is an argument that each of them could have potentially accomplished more and been given more opportunities later in their careers than they were, considering their talent and (for Luger) huge pushes.

Luger was a huge rising star as a face in NWA/WCW, then got a huge monster heel push as the Champion (taking over Flair's spot) with Harley Race as manager, then became a huge heel in WWF ("Narcissist" was a shitty gimmick but he was pushed to the moon) and then became an even bigger face in WWF...beating Yokozuna by DQ in a Title match and commentators still selling it as a moral victory :lol: His star kind of declined from there though, he was never a primary force in the nWo and he just kind of was seen as a former main eventer. Even putting aside Luger's personal life (and everything that went down with Elizabeth), Luger fell short of having the career and impact on the business that many initially thought he was going to and could have given the multitude of HUGE pushes that he got. He never caught on as THE top guy but was very talented. I thought he did great in all of his early roles and had a lot of talent as a heel. I never really bought him as a face. He was like the PERFECT "best friend turned backstabber" to pure face Sting and never lived that down. But he wasn't a failure. I don't think he'll be remembered in a Top 50 of all time list though and he was certainly positioned to be given all his huge pushes. That doesn't make him a failure but the argument he didn't live up to his potential is solid.

Davey Boy Smith didn't get the same huge opportunities that Luger got but the British Bulldogs are considered a legendary tag team, his feud with Bret Hart was huge and elevated the IC Title significantly, his IC Title run was very good, his participation in Hart's stable was strong, and he was an incredibly talented wrestler for a man of his size in the 80's and 90's. I think that he could have been a bigger star if Vince allowed him to talk more (but Vince had issues with any hint of an international accent) and also had there been a few less big men to compete with during the time Smith was rising up the ladder. I don't think Smith was given the same opportunities to have career successes that matched his talent and potential, unlike Luger. And WWF in the 80's and 90's provided far fewer chances to be a break-out star. If Vince didn't see you at the top, you probably weren't getting there. Obviously there were some exceptions (like Bret and HBK) but it was far more difficult then to rise to the very top on talent and fan reaction than it has been in recent years. That said. Davey Boy Smith was a solid midcarder in the WWF at a time when a midcarder could still get some attention in the main event and was featured on TV a lot as a singles and tag wrestler. I don't think his career was a failure at all.

"Failing" to be known as one of the best ever isn't necessarily having a failure of a career. Just to use "winning a world title" as one incomplete to measure the success of a wrestling career: Some of the best wrestlers never held a World Title but are remembered fondly, respected, and seen as instrumental for certain eras. Ted DiBiase never won a Title but people still remember him very fondly and he defines the WWF mid-late 80's top heel for many people who watched then and think back to that time. Steven Regal never won a World Title but the man put on masterpieces in the ring and wowed us with a microphone. Meanwhile, some guys who won the World Title burnt out almost immediately and had no impact or legacy on the business.

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Zealot » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:20 pm

In terms of WWE trying to make Luger into the next Hulk Hogan, it was somewhat of a failure because it didn't live up to the same standards as Hogan's run did in their eyes. Wrestling wise though, both he and Bulldog are far from failures based on their entire body of work.
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Pyrodean » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:01 pm

I think bad booking kind of keep Luger from being bigger than he was. If I remember right, WCW turned him too many times in the early 90s and that didn't help him. It was like, "Flair is gone we need a heel, turn Luger". Then, "Wait a minute he is so big and muscular, he could be the next Hogan, turn him face". Then, "But now Sting has no one to feud with, turn Luger heel".

Then the whole Lex Express thing in WWF. They spent a whole summer hyping it up, then comes SummerSlam and he doesn't beat Yokozuna. That pretty much put an end to any chance of him being the tippy top guy in WWF at the time.

As for Bulldog, I wouldn't call him a fail at all. I do remember hearing Meltzer on a podcast once saying that both WWF and WCW had plans in the first half of the 90s for a big singles push for Davey but never really happened for reasons. Maybe Hall was referring to that? But Bulldog is my all-time favorite wrestler so I consider him(with some bias admittedly) and Luger bigger stars than Hall.

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby JDP » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:56 pm

Pyrodean wrote:Then the whole Lex Express thing in WWF. They spent a whole summer hyping it up, then comes SummerSlam and he doesn't beat Yokozuna. That pretty much put an end to any chance of him being the tippy top guy in WWF at the time.


Well to be fair he DID defeat Yokozuna.

It was just sadly by countout.
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby jbravos » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:37 am

The thing with Luger in WWF was if Hogan had stayed away after Wrestlemania 8 and they built the Him up Made in the USA Lex Express it might of worked. But reality is Hogan did come back won and lost the title to Yoko and just 3 weeks after Hogan’s loss at King of the Ring here comes Lex as the made in USA Guy. Kind of a quick turn around and that’s why it failed Hogan was still fresh in WWF fans minds. Now this is one of those never been confirmed stories but the story is Luger was going to win the belt at Summerslam but he allegedly gave out the finish on a radio show so Vince got wind of this and changed the ending. Then it was said Bret started crying about not being in the main event and Vince went with Bret and the Lex express was derailed

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby orochigeese » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:58 am

Pyrodean wrote:I think bad booking kind of keep Luger from being bigger than he was. If I remember right, WCW turned him too many times in the early 90s and that didn't help him. It was like, "Flair is gone we need a heel, turn Luger". Then, "Wait a minute he is so big and muscular, he could be the next Hogan, turn him face". Then, "But now Sting has no one to feud with, turn Luger heel".

Then the whole Lex Express thing in WWF. They spent a whole summer hyping it up, then comes SummerSlam and he doesn't beat Yokozuna. That pretty much put an end to any chance of him being the tippy top guy in WWF at the time


Good points :idea:

As we've seen with WWE over the past 10 years, a wrestler can be actively pushed to the moon but booked horribly so that the wrestler never gets to really show their appeal (IF they even have it) and the audience doesn't buy it.

I think one problem with Luger was that promoters never went beyond seeing him as anything other than "the next ____"

WCW: Flair leaves, let's turn Luger heel and give him Harley and turn him into the next Flair by having him attack Sting and act arrogant.

WWF: Hogan leaves, let's turn Luger face and have him basically campaign for President in a bus ( :lol: ) and transform him into the next Hogan by BODYSLAMMING (hi Andre) and beating foreign heel Champion Yokozuna.

Granted, going up the roster in the late 80's/early 90's meant that EVERYONE was living in Flair and Hogan's shadow to some extent but there were still breakouts - those being wrestlers SO unique that they became their own models for future success. HBK was a great example of that.

Luger had talent but he didn't do any one thing in such a unique way that anyone 20 years later would ever say someone is "the next Lex Luger" and mean it as a true compliment from a legacy perspective.

(Chris Masters in 2005 was almost the next Lex Luger but in the worst way possible)

Luger's booking got him to the dance but his inability to really be unique on his own AND be booked as unique on his own kind of stopped him from ever consistently staying on that highest level.

People can say what they want about HHH, but even though he idolized Flair (and tried to emulate his title reign success), he always had his own unique aggressive spin to "heel in charge". Luger just wasn't unique enough as a top heel and (partially due to Vince's fault) was booked too much like Hogan while not having the charisma.

And man, beating Yokozuna Summerslam by DQ was just atrocious. All those balloons fell and I was just staring at the screen wondering why failing to win the title after a summer buildup was a victory. That's Luger's career in a nutshell. Gets to the grand stage and doesn't walk away with any real legacy award to show for it, partially due to his own lack of unique appeal and also due to ineffective booking (in stopping him from getting "Top 50 of all time" super over despite having a successful career) even though he received HUGE pushes.

I still hesitate to call Luger a failure objectively but measured against what he was positioned to be, he certainly was a failed attempt at "the next big thing" as both WCW and WWF tried to make him.

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Severla 2.0 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:50 pm

Luger's DQ win is also still accompanied by rumors like 'Lex gloating in a bar about getting the title = no title' and Waltman once said that they were taping an event for post-Mania and the crowd dumpstered the belt-holding Luger so Vince backed out, etc.

Who knows.

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Pyrodean » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:23 pm

orochigeese wrote:And man, beating Yokozuna Summerslam by DQ was just atrocious. All those balloons fell and I was just staring at the screen wondering why failing to win the title after a summer buildup was a victory.


:lol: That is exactly what I was thinking when I saw it as a kid. I was like, "They're celebrating this? Lame"

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Timberwolf » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:09 am

RIP RAW Tag Team Division. :?

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby JDP » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:26 am

After making The Revival into chumps it was basically a mercy killing.
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Severla 2.0
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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Severla 2.0 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:56 pm

More like 'resting the entire division on 3 ex-champs and one contender for 5 months' = RIP.

Fucking zero credibility outside them and Ambrose (then Jordan) going down basically left nobody up there.

No different than Rated RKO and DX feuding over them and that ended with a 10-team Battle Royal to take them off HBK/Cena.

Raw horribly struggles with tag teams.

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Re: General Wrasslin' Discussion

Postby Fignuts » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:02 am

Fabulous Moolah Battle Royal announced for wrestlemania

Winner gets their wages cut, and gets pimped out to other promotors for sexual favors.

Honestly though, how is WWE this tone deaf. A hundred other great female wrestlers throughout history, and they pick the one that has fairly recently been exposed as an awful human being.


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